Newbie Q's

[garyfritz]

I'm just starting to figure out my URC-9910 and all the tools I need to make it dance and sing. I've got a JP1 cable on order and I've been playing with RM.

* When the batteries die, how long will the memory hold while I switch batteries? If I've got JP1 to make backups and re-load everything this is much less of a concern, but useful to know anyway.

* How do I learn about the features of the extenders and remote models? The standard RDFs have 4 models for the 9910 (new/old, with/without extender 1), but that doesn't seem to have any connection to the 2 extenders I see in the Files section. I can't find any description of the standard models anyhere. In those models, the only differences I see are the presence/absence of XShift.

* How do you access the XShift keys? XShift appears to be a function of the extender I was (unwittingly) using, but Shift seems to be on all of the 9910 models. I've seen some posts that say they use SET for shift, some that use HT, so apparently this is custom-programmed in your remote (extender?), but I haven't seen anything that mentions XShift.

* Is there a guide somewhere that explains exactly what EFC and ODB are, and how you logically work with them?

* There is an upgrade for the NEC XG CRT projector in the Files section, but it's missing some important functions. So I also pulled Guy Kuo's XG Pronto file from remotecentral and extracted the goodies from the CCF. When I compare them, the Device 1/Device 2 (Device and Subdevice in Pronto-speak) match, and the ODB codes match, but the EFC codes are totally different. !??

* What's the Hex field, and how do I fill it in? Does it get computed somehow? I don't see any corresponding field in the CCF file I extracted, but it appeared when I loaded the extracted CCF file into RM. The upgrades I downloaded from the Files section had a one-byte Hex field, but the NEC file I extracted from a CCF had a 3-byte Hex field. (But the 3rd byte is always FF.)

* I called OFA and they had a download for the NEC XG. It was TV code 0497. Does that code relate in any way to the numbers (Device 1/2, etc) I see in RM? I don't see it anywhere.

* Are the upgrades we upload via JP1 analagous to the built-in or downloaded-over-the-phone device modes from OFA? Or are we using a different memory space or something? (If so, that would explain why I don't see the OFA TV code for the NEC XG in the XG upgrade.) I'm guessing that the OFA device modes are accessed/addressed by the code (e.g. TV 0497 for the XG) and then loaded into "active" memory for that mode. And when we upload via JP1 we are bypassing the internal addressing step and just loading into the active memory?

* Even if I figure that (and EFC and ODB and whatever) out, I still don't quite understand how Advanced functions fit into this scheme...

Thanks!
Gary

[The Robman]

When the batteries die, how long will the memory hold while I switch batteries? If I've got JP1 to make backups and re-load everything this is much less of a concern, but useful to know anyway.

You have for ever, JP1 remotes never forget!

How do I learn about the features of the extenders and remote models?

By reading the readme's that come with each extender.

I'll answer more of your Q's later.

[garyfritz]

By reading the readme's that come with each extender.

OK, but where do I find the readme's? As I said, I can't find any docs on the models in the standard RDFs, and the extenders I found in the file section don't seem to match the extender used in the RDF models.

Gary

[Mark Pierson]

OK, but where do I find the readme's?

Every extender .zip file contains the appropriate readme file.

[Capn Trips]

Man, you sure ask a lot of questions! Are you sure you've read everything available here?

* When the batteries die, how long will the memory hold while I switch batteries? If I've got JP1 to make backups and re-load everything this is much less of a concern, but useful to know anyway.

EEPROM holds its memory indefinitely (unless some truly unnatural act occurs, like an electric shock)

* How do I learn about the features of the extenders and remote models? The standard RDFs have 4 models for the 9910 (new/old, with/without extender 1), but that doesn't seem to have any connection to the 2 extenders I see in the Files section. I can't find any description of the standard models anyhere. In those models, the only differences I see are the presence/absence of XShift.

For features of remote models, consult the manufacturers websites, and/or search the forums here for a particular model. Many of the manuals for the older UEI remotes can be found on this website, if you start from the HOME PAGE. Follow the link titled "manuals" - but the TRUE capabilities of these remotes are not always fully explained in the manufacturers manuals, but in Rob's home-made ones - also linked through this site.

As far as extenders go, in general, extender zip files contain readme's.

As for the 9910 old vs. new, this is a different issue that you happen to have stumbled upon.

The URC 8910 and 9910 had two versions, the "old" had a ring around the "select" button that contained all of the arrows on this one sort of wobbly ring, whilst the "new" 8910/9910 have distinct arrow buttons, so they look different, although they share the same rdf.

You will find that there are separate jpg images for these, since they look different, in the images folder generated when you install the map and image files for RM, but the rdf for these four remotes (five, in fact, as the HTPro is also identical) are one and the same.

Hence the rdf file name includes all five of these versions of the "same" remote. Got it?

Five remotes, but 1 rdf, and 5 different images

(actually the 8910 (old) and 9910 (old) look the same, and the 8910 (new) and 9910 (new) also look the same, but that's enough confusion aobut THAT for one post! )

Regarding the various rdf's, you have again stumbled upon an anomalous situation here. The 8910/9910/HTPro have ONE rdf for the unextended remote(s), and ONE FULLY DEVELOPED extender profile (with its attendant rdf) with a full set of readmes in its zip file.

One forum member recently manually modified the 9910 extender rdf for a personal requirement and you may stumble upon it in the rdf or diagnosis section. As I recall, he went through versions 2, 3, and 4, but I don't believe ANY of these has been fully developed with appropriate support, and if you put one of them in your rdf folder, you will likely have some conflicts as their ID matches that of extender 1's rdf.

Bottom line, use extender 1 if you're interested in the extended 9910, and use the rdfs that come in the rdf zip file in the tools section, as THOSE are the ones kept most up-to-date (as opposed to any rdf's packaged with extenders in a zip)

* How do you access the XShift keys? XShift appears to be a function of the extender I was (unwittingly) using, but Shift seems to be on all of the 9910 models. I've seen some posts that say they use SET for shift, some that use HT, so apparently this is custom-programmed in your remote (extender?), but I haven't seen anything that mentions XShift.

Read the extender readme. Basically, you can assign a THIRD tier of functions to buttons using x-shift in some extended remotes. Usually this is done for use in macros, BUT if you wish to access them directly, those same extenders allow you to define a distinct button (ANY button) as the x-shift button, so that pressing it will subsequently allow you to access the function assigned to an x-shifted button.

* Is there a guide somewhere that explains exactly what EFC and ODB are, and how you logically work with them?

Basically, EFCs (Extended Function Codes) and OBCs (Original Button Codes) (I don't know what an ODB is other than rapper Old Dirty Bastard) are different ways of identifying an advanced function code. EFCs are "encoded" OBCs - with several different methods of encoding out there, depending on protocol (usually). You can use either with JP1 tools, although the commonly used term "advanced codes" usually means EFCs, although I prefer OBCs, and certain protocols require you to use OBCs. Here's an explanation of sorts.

* There is an upgrade for the NEC XG CRT projector in the Files section, but it's missing some important functions. So I also pulled Guy Kuo's XG Pronto file from remotecentral and extracted the goodies from the CCF. When I compare them, the Device 1/Device 2 (Device and Subdevice in Pronto-speak) match, and the ODB codes match, but the EFC codes are totally different. !??

Stick with OBCs - EFCs can be encoded from OBCs in various ways.

* What's the Hex field, and how do I fill it in? Does it get computed somehow? I don't see any corresponding field in the CCF file I extracted, but it appeared when I loaded the extracted CCF file into RM. The upgrades I downloaded from the Files section had a one-byte Hex field, but the NEC file I extracted from a CCF had a 3-byte Hex field. (But the 3rd byte is always FF.)

Hex is computed by KM or RM, you need not mess with it (excpet in certain advanced situations)

* I called OFA and they had a download for the NEC XG. It was TV code 0497. Does that code relate in any way to the numbers (Device 1/2, etc) I see in RM? I don't see it anywhere.

No. The number of a setup code (or device upgrade, if it's not a built-in setup code) is entirely random (between 0000 and 2047), and has nothing to do with the Protocol and/or device/subdevice number(s).

* Are the upgrades we upload via JP1 analagous to the built-in or downloaded-over-the-phone device modes from OFA? Or are we using a different memory space or something? (If so, that would explain why I don't see the OFA TV code for the NEC XG in the XG upgrade.) I'm guessing that the OFA device modes are accessed/addressed by the code (e.g. TV 0497 for the XG) and then loaded into "active" memory for that mode. And when we upload via JP1 we are bypassing the internal addressing step and just loading into the active memory?

Built-in codes are in ROM, and cannot be viewed in IR. ANY upgrade, whether it be installed by UEI/OFA at the factory, over-the-phone, or by a JP1 user via IR and a cable, uses a section of the EEPROM that is dedicated to upgrades. A different portion of the EEPROM is set aside for Keymoves and Macros, whilst yet another portion of the EEPROM is reserved for learning (in those remotes that support learning) - except an extender can re-allocate these memory assignments. Particularly useful in learning remotes, where the learning memory gets re-allocated to Keymoves/Macros, greatly increasing your capacity for these.

So if OFA downloaded an upgrade TV:0497 to your remote, you should see it in the Device upgrade section of IR.

* Even if I figure that (and EFC and ODB and whatever) out, I still don't quite understand how Advanced functions fit into this scheme...

As stated above, advanced functions are the "layman's" term for EFCs.

You've clearly read enough to be dangerous but I recommend reading more

[Mark Pierson]

* Even if I figure that (and EFC and ODB and whatever) out, I still don't quite understand how Advanced functions fit into this scheme...

As stated above, advanced functions are the "layman's" term for EFCs.

Actually, Advanced Functions are technically any functions that do not exist in a default setup code (or even an upgrade for that matter). UEI provides a mechanism on most remotes to allow a user to add addtional functions to a given setup (i.e. the 9-9-4 command on non-LCD remotes). The EFC (a JP1 term for the UEI-encoded OBC sent by the OEM remote) is the "data" entered to enable the Advanced Function.

[garyfritz]

Thanks Capn Trips, you've clarified a lot of things.

Man, you sure ask a lot of questions! Are you sure you've read everything available here?

Well, all the intro/newbie stuff I could find, and some more besides. I had to read quite a bit before I understood enough to ask the questions I did. EVERYTHING? No, I'm sure I've missed quite a bit, but not all of it is applicable. Especially since I don't understand some of the issues it's talking about yet.

Re: extenders, new/old 9910, etc. OK, the new/old makes sense now. I hadn't noticed the different layout image.

As for reading the readme that comes in the extender's .zip file -- I don't HAVE a .zip file for the extender. I wanted to keep it simple and standard so I downloaded the current standard RDFs from the Files section, and used one of the remote descriptions there. The new/old 9910 models in the RDFs come with/without "extender 1." No .zip, no readme, no documentation of any kind that I can find. I also found two extenders HERE that have readmes but they're not the extenders used in the RDFs. For now I'm just keeping it simple and using the standard-RDF "new 9910" version without extender 1.

* How do I learn about the features of the extenders and remote models?

For features of remote models, consult the manufacturers websites, and/or search the forums here for a particular model.

Sorry, I must be using the wrong terminology. I don't mean the actual physical remote model. I have the paper manual for my 9910. I mean the things that *describe* different remotes, which you select with the "Remote:" pulldown in RM. Mostly I was asking how I find out what the "extender 1" in the RDF 9910 descriptions does.

Follow the link titled "manuals" - but the TRUE capabilities of these remotes are not always fully explained in the manufacturers manuals, but in Rob's home-made ones - also linked through this site.

Rob's home-made manuals? You mean the ones at the top of this page? I don't see anything there for the URC 9910 or 8910. Are Rob's manuals somewhere else?

EFCs are "encoded" OBCs - with several different methods of encoding out there, depending on protocol (usually). You can use either with JP1 tools, ... I prefer OBCs, and certain protocols require you to use OBCs.

OK. So I can just use the OBCs from the extracted Pronto file and RM calculates the EFC and Hex fields from there.

You've clearly read enough to be dangerous

I think that's a safe assessment. I think I've got enough background understanding now to hold me until I get my JP1 cable...

Thanks!
Gary

[gfb107]

I mean the things that *describe* different remotes, which you select with the "Remote:" pulldown in RM. Mostly I was asking how I find out what the "extender 1" in the RDF 9910 descriptions does.

In RM's "Remote" pull-down, you select the remote you are trying to program. The list of remotes in that pull down is built from the RDFs.

If you haven't installed Extender 1 in your 8910, you shouldn't select the 8910 with extender 1.

The explanation of what the extender does, and how to install it, is in the readme.txt file for extender. The extender is available for download in the URC-8910 folder of the Extenders folder of the JP1 File Section.

[garyfritz]

In RM's "Remote" pull-down, you select the remote you are trying to program. The list of remotes in that pull down is built from the RDFs.

Right. That much I understood.

If you haven't installed Extender 1 in your 8910, you shouldn't select the 8910 with extender 1.

Ohhhh. So the "9910 with extender 1" remote description doesn't INCLUDE extender 1. It's just the one that WORKS WITH extender 1, IF you have installed extender 1. Gotcha.

The extender is available for download in the URC-8910 folder

Oh, so 8910ex1_1.zip is the "extender 1" that works with the RDF description? I see. So I *DO* have a .zip and a readme.

Thanks!
Gary

[Capn Trips]

I've been incommunicado for a few days, but was wondering if you have got what you needed about the extender sorted yet?

One possible misconception that you could get from the way we speak of extenders is regarding its "installation". This is a term I prefer to NOT use (but occasionally do). You don't really INSTALL the extender in the way that for some JP1 remotes you INSTALL a jumper or an EEPROM. You use an "extended" remote definition when building your IR setup for your remote, and upload your "extended" IR file to your remote. It's just sofware.

[garyfritz]

Thanks Capn -- ya, I think I got that part. I understood that the extender is just an alternate "OS" that you load into the remote. Or maybe "library" is closer.

OK, my JP1 cable arrived today. I removed the male-to-male standoff part (is that the "pogo" for Kameleons?) and changed the plug from a male to a female. Then I plugged it into the remote. EVERY segment on the LCD is turned on. (Is that normal?)

I ran IR and tried to download the current config. IR says "No response from interface. Make sure that the interface is connected to the PC, and that you've specified the correct port."

It's seated in the parallel port as well as I can. I assume it must be connected properly or the LCD wouldn't be lit up. "Parallel" is checked under the Interface menu.

That was with the cable lead trailing out toward the bottom of the remote. I tried turning the cable around (had to use needle-nose pliers to get it out!) and connecting it that way. IR says "No response from remote. Make sure your Interface is pluged into JP1 properly."

I reversed the cable again. This time the LCD didn't light up but I still got the original error message.

What am I doing wrong?

Gary

[Capn Trips]

Thanks Capn -- ya, I think I got that part. I understood that the extender is just an alternate "OS" that you load into the remote. Or maybe "library" is closer.

OK, my JP1 cable arrived today. I removed the male-to-male standoff part (is that the "pogo" for Kameleons?) and changed the plug from a male to a female. Then I plugged it into the remote. EVERY segment on the LCD is turned on. (Is that normal?)

I ran IR and tried to download the current config. IR says "No response from interface. Make sure that the interface is connected to the PC, and that you've specified the correct port."

What am I doing wrong?

Gary

"The Capn's standard answer number 1":

I have used the simple parallel interface for years, but I CAN assert that for me, different remotes with different computers (desktop vs. laptop) require various battery configurations ranging from fully charged to weak-ish, to virtually dead, to open-circuited. I suggest you try NEW batteries, but several different combinations:
(1) Old, weak batteries;
(2) If you have four batteries, try reversing one (this simulates very weak batteries);
(3) Try removing a battery (open-circuiting it).

For my HT Pro (8910 clone) I remove a battery to get the interface to work.

[greenough1]

On my 8910 with the parallel interface, I can communicate just fine with new batteries in. I do note that when I download or upload, all segments of the lcd also light-up but sort of weakish compared to when it's displaying something.

jeff

[garyfritz]

Well that stinks, to put it politely. It must be a pretty marginal design if it's that sensitive to battery level.

These are new batteries. I tried removing a battery (which effectively opens the circuit and disconnects ALL batteries, yes?), and I tried reversing one of the batteries. I tried old batteries. I tried a desktop system and an old laptop. NONE worked.

Does this mean I've wasted my money, on the cable if not on the remote!? Is the USB cable this flaky??

What's the correct wiring (pin to pin) for this thing? I wonder if I've got a defective cable?

Grrr...

[underquark]

Well, I can only really speak from experience of my system - "Simple" (i.e. parallel) interface, Windows XP SP2 on an Athlon 1900 desktop PC. I use 4xAAA rechargeable batteries which, at 1.2v each, always seem to work just fine.

There have been reports of problems with the parallel port settings in Windows (or in the PC's BIOS) which seem to afflict laptops more frequently than desktops.

If you lay your 8910 remote face (button-side) down and remove the battery cover you should see the JP1 pins at the bottom. Look closely at the cable and you will see that it is a ribbon consisting of four wires with a very short piece of wire jumpering two of the connector. Insert the plug so that this side is to the left and the cable trails down and awawy from the remote. Note that it's aslightly tight fit on the 8910 and easy to plug in and only connect with onew row of the pins.

So, check plug orientation, check insertion and then fiddle with parallel port settings in BIOS if this fails.

The extra male bits you were given with your cable are of use if you have a remote that needs the pins soldered in to make it JP1-compatible but the 8910 already has the pins built-in. "Pogo" pins are little telescopic electrical contacts and cost afair bit more than a simple 2x3 set of header pins.