Sharp/Denon Combo (Official) Protocol issues

wugger · Post by **wugger** » Fri Dec 30, 2005 6:36 pm

I have been using JP1 for several years now and I have never had an issue with the KM spreadsheets or upgrades (I have gone through many devices in those years) but I have recently tried to add a device to the remote based on the Sharp Combo (Official) protocol to my RS 15-2104 remote without success.

If I change the spreadsheet to use just the "Sharp" protocol and ignore the device byte I can get each set of device keys to work so that would lend me to believe that remote needs not only the device upgrade but a protocol upgrade too (I am trying to use the Combo protocol because the Sharp LC45GX6U has 3 devices needed to control the unit making the Combo the right choice). However, no protocol upgrade is generated for a 15-2104 when selecting building a KM sheet using the "Sharp Combo (Official)" protocol.

Has anyone using a 15-2104 been able to successfully use a device based on the Sharp Combo (Official) protocol? Could this be an issue with the KM spreadsheet not generating the protocol upgrade for this remote model? Any help here is welcome.

Post by **ElizabethD** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 4:10 pm

wugger wrote:... no protocol upgrade is generated for a 15-2104 when selecting building a KM sheet using the "Sharp Combo (Official)" protocol.
...
Could this be an issue with the KM spreadsheet not generating the protocol upgrade for this remote model?

Probably not.
For 8910 I used Sharp Combo in KM, it came out as protocol 00 9C. It must be built in 8910 because protocol copy wasn't needed for IR. It worked for me on LC26GA54. Perhaps it's built in 2104 as well?
I just uploaded my upgrade,
https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=2631
maybe it'll help you, but you will have to change the remote and move button assignments around.
sfshub's upgrade might be closer, I just saw it there:
https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=1644

I don't see 009C under Sharp in Rob's Devices.xls, but it is under Denon Combo there, as well as in RM's protocols.ini and in John Fine's DecodeIR list. According to Devices.xls this protocol IS built in to 2104.

wugger · Post by **wugger** » Sun Jan 01, 2006 5:15 pm

Thanks for the reply. I had started with sfshub's upgrade

Thanks for pointing out the Denon Combo entry. Yesterday while the forums were down I just switched my KM to "Denon Combo" and it gave me a protocol upgrade 0047 that I could use with my remote and things are working now (since the 009C and 0047 must be very similar). I too would have thought that the 009C protocol would be built into the 15-2104 as you point out in the devices.xls. However using the Official Sharp or Denon Combo Protocols with my remote only results in a few keys working but when I switch it over to the 0047 Denon Combo Protocol things work perfectly... go figure

I even tried loading the 009c Protocol by hand:

Upgrade Protocol 0 = 00 9C (S3C8) Sharp Combo (Official) (KM v8.37)
3D 92 02 8B 0D 49 05 08 00 84 01 75 00 84 03 87
83 C2 E6 24 03 20 10 0C 05 E4 03 05 60 05 90 05
0A FC B0 C6 A6 0D 02 EB 03 E6 0D 05 F6 01 33 60
04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B 02 60 C6 F6 01 33 37 61 09
60 04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B E3 AF
End

And then adding the device to IR.exe and no luck.

There is something wrong with this protocol or the support for it in the 15-2104 so for now I am content with using the Denon Combo 0047 as my work around even though that takes up more memory.

Thanks for the help.

wugger · Post by **wugger** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 12:55 am

Looking closer at the Sharp Combo (Official), Denon Combo (Official), and Denon Combo protocols and trying to figure out why my Sharp LC-45GX6U mapped in sfshub's KM sheet (https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=1644) doesn't work unless I switch it to "Denon Combo" it is because of the "CMD Comp?" setting in the hidden "p-work" sheet of the KM spreadsheet.

By default both "Sharp Combo (Official) and Denon Combo (Official) are set to "y". The "Denon Combo" version is set to "n".

If I set "Sharp Combo (Official)"'s "CMD Comp?" setting in the hidden "p-work" spreadsheet to "n" instead of "y" which essentially performs the right one's complements the second byte of the hex cmd, I get the correct $hex codes and it now works.

I am using KM v8.37. Can anyone explain why Sharp Combo (Official) and Denon Combo (Official) protocols are identical and why I need to play with the second byte of my hex cmds to get cmds that work with the Sharp Combo (Official) version?

Stock Sharp Combo (Official)

OBC = 236
Byte 2 = 1 (the device)
Hex = 7C C8

Denon Combo or my Updated One's Complement of Sharp Combo (Official):

OBC = 236
Byte 2 = 1 (the device)
Hex = 7C 37

Notice the second byte in the hex cmds.

Thanks for any insight here.

Post by **ElizabethD** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 1:37 pm

wugger wrote:I even tried loading the 009c Protocol by hand:

Upgrade Protocol 0 = 00 9C (S3C8) Sharp Combo (Official) (KM v8.37)
3D 92 02 8B 0D 49 05 08 00 84 01 75 00 84 03 87
83 C2 E6 24 03 20 10 0C 05 E4 03 05 60 05 90 05
0A FC B0 C6 A6 0D 02 EB 03 E6 0D 05 F6 01 33 60
04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B 02 60 C6 F6 01 33 37 61 09
60 04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B E3 AF
End

And then adding the device to IR.exe and no luck.

There is something wrong with this protocol or the support for it in the 15-2104 so for now I am content with using the Denon Combo 0047 as my work around even though that takes up more memory.

Thanks for the help.

I'm no expert, and am not sure what's going on, but here's some stuff I see. For obc 236 I get 78 C8 for two remotes(8910,2104) and both protocols

Upgrade Protocol 0 = 00 9C (S3C8+) Sharp Combo (Official) (KM v8.32)
Upgrade Protocol 0 = 00 9C (S3C8+) Denon Combo (Official) (KM v8.32)
3D 92 02 8B 0D 49 05 08 00 84 01 75 00 84 03 87
83 C2 E6 24 03 20 10 0C 05 E4 03 05 60 05 90 05
0A FC B0 C6 A6 0D 02 EB 03 E6 0D 05 F6 01 46 60
04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B 02 60 C6 F6 01 46 37 61 09
60 04 60 05 F6 01 0A 7B E3 AF
End

Perhaps differences are a clue to something, but where the fault lies is beyond me. Let's hope Mark or Rob answer you.

Edited: this is wrong:
For obc 236 I get 78 C8 for two remotes(8910,2104) and both protocols
Denon: 78 C8, Sharp: 7C c8

Post by **The Robman** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 2:33 pm

F6 01 33 translates to "CALL $0133", which is the call to the IR engine for older S3C8 remotes. F6 01 46 (ie, "CALL $0146") is the same call for the newer S3C8+ remotes.

Mark Pierson · Post by **Mark Pierson** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 3:22 pm

wugger wrote:By default both "Sharp Combo (Official) and Denon Combo (Official) are set to "y". The "Denon Combo" version is set to "n".

If I set "Sharp Combo (Official)"'s "CMD Comp?" setting in the hidden "p-work" spreadsheet to "n" instead of "y" which essentially performs the right one's complements the second byte of the hex cmd, I get the correct $hex codes and it now works.

I am using KM v8.37. Can anyone explain why Sharp Combo (Official) and Denon Combo (Official) protocols are identical and why I need to play with the second byte of my hex cmds to get cmds that work with the Sharp Combo (Official) version?

The Sharp Combo (Official) and Denon Combo (Official) protocols look similar, but they're not identical. They produce slightly different codes for commands. Your example of EFC 236, dev 1, results in Sharp=7C C8 and Denon=78 C8.

The listed Denon Combo protocol is a "hacked" protocol that I believe Rob wrote himself before we discovered the official combo.

As for whether or not the official versions should use COMP'd commands, I'll have to defer to Rob (or some other protocol expert) before changing KM.

Post by **ElizabethD** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 5:44 pm

Mark Pierson wrote: Your example of EFC 236, dev 1, results in Sharp=7C C8 and Denon=78 C8.

Yup, I goofed. Corrected above. Hard to keep a 2x2 matrix in my head

Rob, I saw the jumps, which was a first clue to non-S3C8+ and I suppose 2104 is S2C8+.

wugger · Post by **wugger** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 6:41 pm

All I know is that I need to COMP the commands before loading them into the remote which is similar to what the hacked Denon protocol does.

To be clear...

Loading device codes for the Sharp Combo (Official) protocol on a 15-2104 does not work until I manually change the "CMD Comp?" bit in the p-work worksheet (KM 8.37) before I copy and load them in the remote.

This seems broken, but I will let the experts comment.

Mark Pierson · Post by **Mark Pierson** » Mon Jan 02, 2006 7:44 pm

wugger wrote:This seems broken

I'm not disputing you, but I'm really not any good with "under-the-hood" protocol details. I can't seem to find any notes pertaining to the changes made to the Sharp Combo (Official) back in KM v8.28 & 8.29 so I'd be more comfortable waiting for Rob to comment.

yagi_boy · Post by **yagi_boy** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 10:51 am

Not sure if this is the same problem, but I, too, had a problem using the Sharp Combo protocol. Turned out that the KM generated the wrong EFCs for the OBCs I put in. By using the "OBC to Base EFC Table" for the OBCs to put into KM, it all worked out fine and KM then generated the correct EFCs.

BTW, tried the same thing in RM and it appears to work OK. Not sure what's going on in KM but there is definitely a problem with thge Sharp Combo protocol.

Mark Pierson · Post by **Mark Pierson** » Sun Jan 15, 2006 11:21 am

yagi_boy wrote:Not sure what's going on in KM but there is definitely a problem with thge Sharp Combo protocol.

I just uploaded KM 8.38 that fixes this.

sfhub · Post by **sfhub** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:09 pm

Mark Pierson wrote:[*]Changed 'Denon/Sharp Combo (Official)' $009C protocols to use non-Comp'd commands.

Can someone provide the background behind this change? I'm trying to understand things better.

It appears to break the upgrade I was using for my Sharp Aquos TV. Upgrade is available here:
https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=1644

The upgrade uses the Sharp Combo protocol and works fine with KM 8.37 and RS 15-2117, but KM 8.38 generates a different device upgrade that doesn't work anymore, meaning the wrong IR is being sent so the mappings are all off.

Mark Pierson · Post by **Mark Pierson** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:17 pm

sfhub wrote:Can someone provide the background behind this change?

It came as a result of this discussion.

sfhub · Post by **sfhub** » Mon Apr 03, 2006 6:35 pm

Hi, I'm sfhub who created the Sharp Aquos device upgrade you folks were discussing.

This thread was just pointed out to me so bear with me if I don't have all the background.

I understand there was some problem with Sharp Combo on 15-2104 and CMD comp was changed.

It turns out that change breaks the Sharp Combo upgrade for my 15-2117 remote.

I'm wondering if the problem is fully understood or a change was made that happened to make things work, but the mechanism was not quite understood?

For the record, I also have a Sharp LC-45GX6U like the original poster.

I couldn't quite follow whether the original problem was the Sharp Combo protocol behaved differently in 15-2104 vs 15-2117 or the problem was 15-2104 didn't have a builtin Sharp Combo protocol and it wasn't being generated by KM?

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