RCA ColorTrak TV (20 years old)

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 8:54 pm

Device: The 20 year old RCA ColorTrak TV in the living room (no model number anywhere, everything just says "ColorTrak")

Remote: Wal-Mart 88810w
JP1 Tools Available: +cable, +KM, +RM, +IR
Have Original Remote: Yes

The standard setup codes for RCA TVs did not work. (0047,1047,1147,1247,1347,1447,0090,0051,0093,0019)

JP1 Yahoo Files has 1 RCA TV device upgrade which did not work.

I learned a few buttons. It was very hard to get the 8810w to learn them. Took multiple attempts for each. When tested the buttons worked on the TV to turn on power, change volume and change channel. When I uploaded the remote to IR.exe, there were no protocols, no devices, no subdevices, no EFCs, no OBCs listed for any of them. Here is what was listed:

Power
Sent Once: +7374 -1242 +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +1584 -1636 +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +4752 -1690
Sent Repeatedly: +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +1584 -1636 +396 -2824 +396 -2824 +1584 -1636 +4752 -1690

Vol Up
Sent Once: +7486 -1104 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +4848 -1594
Sent Repeatedly: +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +4848 -1594

Vol Down
Sent Once: +7386 -1204 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +4824 -1618
Sent Repeatedly: +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +4824 -1618

Channel Up
Sent Once: +7360 -1230 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +4824 -1618
Sent Repeatedly: +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +402 -2818 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +1608 -1612 +4824 -1618

The power button was at a frequency of 40404. The rest were at a frequency of 39800.

Any suggestions for creating a device upgrade or is it basically impossible when no protocol is listed? Also, as I am now curious, what does all that stuff mean? Is there something I can go read to edumakate myself?

jamesgammel · Post by **jamesgammel** » Sat Dec 06, 2003 11:44 pm

Steve,

If your old RCA is indeed 20 or more years old, that would put it at 1983 or EARLIER vintage. it wasn't until 1984 That RCA switched to using the IR stream that's commonly in use today. I'm surprised that you even got frequency readings.
I had a 1984 vintage RCA TV. I couldn't get a ueic remote to work it. however, iwas able to get an RCA systemlink remote to work the thing with setupcode 005. What i never did find out was whether 005 was the old scheme put in the remote, or whether since it was a transitional model, the firware would accept two different schemes.

Jim

gjarboni · Post by **gjarboni** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 12:45 am

usblipitor wrote:Device: The 20 year old RCA ColorTrak TV in the living room (no model number anywhere, everything just says "ColorTrak")

Any suggestions for creating a device upgrade or is it basically impossible when no protocol is listed? Also, as I am now curious, what does all that stuff mean? Is there something I can go read to edumakate myself?

To answer your questions in order.

1) It is possible to create a device upgrade when no protocol is listed, but it usually requires a new protocol. This protocol can be created with Protocol Builder.

Jon or John (& others) can answer the rest better, but I was hear first, so I'll give it a shot.

2) The stuff is a collection on on (+) and off (-) pulses. In a majority of protocols there is one type of + - signal for a zero bit and another type of + - signal for a one bit.

3) There is lots of information about IR protocols. I believe most of it is at remote central and a large part of it is the work of Barry Gordon. There are also many posts on the old Yahoo group that describe how to decode signals. One real important thing to remember when decoding signals is that slight variations in milliseconds and frequency don't matter.

For this protocol there is a lead in signal of +7400 -1200 (approx.). +400 -2800 is either zero or one and +1600 -1600 is either one or zero. There's a lead out of +4800 -1700. When held down everything but the lead in is repeated. With a guess of +400 -2800 as a zero and +1600 -1600 as a one, I get:

Power
0001011001

Vol Up
0001000111

Vol Down
0001000101

Channel Up
0001010111

Now I'd guess that the first four (or five) bits are the device and that the rest are the data. The device is 2 (00010) or one (0001) and the commands are:
Power=25
Vol+=7
Vol-=5
Ch+=23

Or maybe the last one is always sent and the commands would be:

Power=12
Vol+=3
Vol-=2
Ch+=11

That looks a bit more likely (Vol+ and Vol- are usually one after the other).

The next step is for you to learn as many commands as you can from the initial remote to your 8811. Fill up the 8811's memory if you can (you'll get a long blink after the setup-975 when you do). Post the IR image to the yahoo diagnosis area and me or someone else will decode it.

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:47 am

What a cool explanation! That actually made a lot of sense, and now those long strings of numbers do not seem so mysterious!

I learned all the buttons on the RCA remote, and put them in a file in the diagnostic area of JP1-Yahoo:
00_IR_RCAColorTrak_Learned_Codes.txt

Thank you all, again, for your help and expertise!

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:38 am

Using Jason's decoding scheme above, I found that the first 4 digits were always 0001, and that the last digit was always 1. I divided the code into part1 which is the first 4 digits, and part2, which is the rest of the digits except for that final digit which was always 1. So if the first 4 digits (part1) are always 0001, maybe the device is 01? I converted what I am calling part2 (the rest of the signal except the final 1) to decimal, and this is in the last column.

Key Decode Part1 Part2 Decimal
----- ---------- ---- ----- --
Power 0001011001 0001 01100 12
Ch+ 0001010111 0001 01011 11
Ch- 0001001111 0001 00111 7
Vol+ 0001000111 0001 00011 3
Vol- 0001000101 0001 00010 2
0 0001100001 0001 10000 16
1 0001100011 0001 10001 17
2 0001100101 0001 10010 18
3 0001100111 0001 10011 19
4 0001101001 0001 10100 20
5 0001101011 0001 10101 21
6 0001101101 0001 10110 22
7 0001101111 0001 10111 23
8 0001110001 0001 11000 24
9 0001110011 0001 11001 25
Mute 0001000011 0001 00001 1
Rcall 0001111101 0001 11110 30

Now if I only knew how to turn this information into a protocol.. but wait, that would require an expert.. now where can I find one of them, hmmm...

PS: how does one correctly format a table in this forum? My nicely formated table that I typed in nice straight columns got horribly parsed by phpBB.

Mark Pierson · Post by **Mark Pierson** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 5:13 am

usblipitor wrote:how does one correctly format a table in this forum? My nicely formated table that I typed in nice straight columns got horribly parsed by phpBB.

You can try using the Code tag, but even that seems to be hit or miss. For example, you can't use the Tab key inside the text box where you compose your message. Using spaces is difficult because it displays with a proportional font.

gfb107 · Post by **gfb107** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 8:53 am

You do have to use to code tag, but you also have to edit the code using a monospace font. I usually compose in Notepad w/ the Courier font, then copy'n'paste back into the browser.

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 1:08 pm

gjarboni wrote:Jon or John (& others) can answer the rest better, but I was hear first, so I'll give it a shot.

For this protocol there is a lead in signal of +7400 -1200 (approx.). +400 -2800 is either zero or one and +1600 -1600 is either one or zero. There's a lead out of +4800 -1700. When held down everything but the lead in is repeated. With a guess of +400 -2800 as a zero and +1600 -1600 as a one...

I have found the protocol builder spreadsheet and have read the readme and have looked at the LI/LO matrix. I think my Lead-In style is "1st frame only" but my Lead-Out style does not seem to match any of the 4 choices. Help?

jon_armstrong · Post by **jon_armstrong** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:40 pm

Steve,

A couple of thoughts:

I looked at your file in the diagnosis area and your decoding of it. If I had to guess, I think you are close to how it was encoded but sometimes using PB you have to make simplifying assumptions.

John Fine perfected a symbolic representation of a protocol and here is how you have defined it:

{40k,MSB}{400,-2800|1600,-1600}(7400,-1200(D:3,F:5,1:1,4800,-1700)+)

{40k,MSB} is 40KHz carrier frequency and bits with the Most Significant Bit first.

{400,-2800|1600,-1600} is the Zero and One definition in order

(7400,-1200(D:3,F:5,1:1,4800,-1700)+) is the actual IR signal in order

(D:3,F:5,1:1,4800,-1700)+ means device(D) expressed in three bits, Function(F) in 5-bits, decimal One expressed in One bit and the lead out. The "+" means that the expression inside the parenthesis repeats one or more times.

The way I would structure for PB is:

{40k,MSB}{400,-2800|1600,-1600}(F:8,D:1,4800,-1700)+

and bet the one time lead in isn't that important for recognition. Then define 4800,-1700 as lead in, put lead in style=None and use the Burst mid-frame feature after the 9th bit. Lead out style is 0 and set zero to the off time

You will also have to add 32 to all your decoded numbers. Interestingly the numerals will line up with the current RCA protocol where the numerals are 48 through 57.

If you REALLY need that one time lead in it can be done but ugly and there is one more trick I would try first, but one step at a time.

I have responded in a hurry and it is always possible tht I missed some obvious way to make it perfect and elegant. This is where John Fine comes in

jon_armstrong · Post by **jon_armstrong** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 2:52 pm

BTW, for the fixed data use 128 decimal or 0x80 since it will look for the top bit in a one bit byte. And don't forget signal structure is "cmd-dev".

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 4:55 pm

Jon,

First of all thank you so much for the help! I know this time of year everyone is busy getting ready for the holidays.

I did everything suggested. Sadly, no success. I had some trouble making the Fixed Data say 80. The only way I got this to say 80 in KM was to make the device1=254. Hmm.

If anyone is good at spotting newbie mistakes, I have uploaded the files to the diagnosis area of yahoo JP1 as follows:

01_Protocol_RCAColorTrak.txt (this is from protocol builder)
01_KM_RCAColorTrak_TV_Device_Upgrade.txt
01_IR_RCAColorTrak_8810w.txt

Happy Holidays

jon_armstrong · Post by **jon_armstrong** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:15 pm

Steve,

I took a look and also realized I was off a bit in my previous analysis. The corrections to my first post are:

What the IR protocol probably is:

{40k,MSB}{400,-2800|1600,-1600}(7400,-1200,(D:4,F:5,1:1,4800,-1700)+)

The way I would structure for PB is:
{40k,MSB}{400,-2800|1600,-1600}(D:2,F:8,4800,-1700)+

Note I have now put the fixed device data as the first two bits (always 00). So now the fixed data is 0 in any form and for the functions you take your decimal equivalents add 32, multiply that sum by 2 and add 1.

the numeral zero is:
16+32=48
48 x 2=96
96+1=97

I just recreated the KM Master file and corrected the protocol file. I think you should be able to follow what I did. For starters you had the One/Zero definitions backwards. In PB the One is first where in John's "modified IRP format" the Zero is first.

There are three files:
1) the IR image with the dev/protocol upgrade loaded TV_1999,
2)the KM Master text file, and
3)the PB text file.

The file is in the JP1 Yahoo diagnostics area as RCA_Color_Track_Round_2.zip. I tested in my 8811 and they seem to put out the same as the learned commands without the one time lead-in of 7400,-1200.

So now they need to be tested. The easiest thing is to save your 8810's configuratiion and just upload the IR image file from my 8811 and test with the TV and see if it works. If so, you can install the device/protocol upgrade into your configuration.

gjarboni · Post by **gjarboni** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:25 pm

I only have time for a brief answer, but I noticed a few things.

1) You are using D:4 F:5. You need 10 bits, so D:4 F:6 is what you want (multiply your decimal decodes by 2 and add 1). The OneOn in the lead off only sends the On portion of the One bit, so that won't work.

2) You're trying to put the custom lead out into PB and it doesn't support it. Try what Jon suggested (4800/1700 as the lead in with no lead out) and see if that works. If it doesn't you'll need some help (ie some manual asm code) to make it work

3) Three, Jon's suggestion of 128 for fixed data was only if you were using his suggested F:8 D:1 format. Take out the 128 and leave the 1 in under device1.

Jon, I just noticed that Jon's structures have nine bits, not ten. Should it be D:4,F:5,1:1 or am I missing something obvious?

jon_armstrong · Post by **jon_armstrong** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 6:30 pm

You are correct. I realized this when testing and that's what I get for eyeballing those strings of binary

We were posting our replies simultaneously. I just did the manipulation to get an 8-bit byte of variable data, but there are a total of 10 data bits.

usblipitor · Post by **usblipitor** » Sun Dec 07, 2003 7:45 pm

Jon & Jason,
Thanks for all this help! It is much appreciated!
I uploaded the IR file to my 8810w and tested it.

It almost works! (See my follow up note on next page)

Thank you! Happy Holidays!

JP1 Remotes

RCA ColorTrak TV (20 years old)

RCA ColorTrak TV (20 years old)

Re: RCA ColorTrak TV (20 years old)

Re: RCA ColorTrak TV (20 years old)