Need help with learned infrared fan codes to 8810 remote

[bufordtdawg]

Hello,

'Tis a sad tale...

Two years back, I took my venerable Cinema6+ learning remote and programmed it via JP1 for my mother's den. I bought a Cinema7+ for me at the same time.

Her setup included a JVC TV, Sampo DVD, Motorola Digital Cable Box, Philips VCR, Pioneer Receiver, Panasonic Laserdisc. On the TV device, I learned the 9 codes for an ancient IR Ceiling Fan with light, and the 7 codes for her Pioneer 6 disk CD changer.

Since then, I upgraded her surround receiver and reprogrammed her Cinema6+ for the Kenwood. All was well.

Enter Poodle Mutt. Two remotes have gone missing. The Cinema6+ and the original Fan remote.

I can solve my problem today by giving her my Cinema7+ since it seems to take the saved IR file OK. I love my mother dearly, but the Cinema7+ has some redeeming qualities too. So, I bought her a Walmart 8810w with fancy lights and more buttons. The trouble is those learned buttons. I can learn them onto the 8810, but I want to use the 8810 extender so that I can re-program the FAV button.

I need help getting the old learned buttons into an 8810 running an extender. I used IR515 to load in the old text file then saved it back as an IR file with the learned buttons commented.

Can an expert take a look at the learned buttons and give me some pointers. I've been flailing away at the read-me files, tutorials, and FAQs here and at the old Yahoo site, but I'm making little progress.


http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jp1/files ... oneerCD.IR

[johnsfine]

Have you tried the Akai protocol in either KM or RM.

I assume you're asking about the ID-000D signals, not the Pioneer signals.

The Readme for DecodeIR says that device4.xls calls those "Akai". Since that was written, both KM and RM were changed to also call it Akai.

I'm not sure whether the "comp" setting is right in KM and RM. DecodeIr looks like it expects comp for this protocol (and I'm pretty sure that's correct) and KM and RM look like they don't.

If that is incorrect (in KM and RM), then you'd need to use device 5 instead of the correct device 2 on the setup sheet, and use only EFC's from the decode, not OBCs.

[The Robman]

If a new Cinema 7+ would solve the problem, I have them available for sale (and I've already soldered in the 6-pin).

Also, just FYI, you don't need to use the extender just to make use of the fav/scan button. There is a special protocol that will let you program in most of the time.

[bufordtdawg]

Hello Rob,

Also, just FYI, you don't need to use the extender just to make use of the fav/scan button. There is a special protocol that will let you program in most of the time.

I'd like to try the FAV/SCAN protocol, but I'm using a few non-native devices because the native ones don't have all of the functions from the original remote. 0476 GI cable lacks Page Up and Page Dn functions. Does the FAV/SCAN protocol allow upgraded devices? As it turns out, I want to put Page Up on the FAV button.

Thank you,
Mike

[bufordtdawg]

Hello John,

Have you tried the Akai protocol in either KM or RM.

No, I was put off by the weird frequency shown by IR. When I look at the protocol list in KM, where do I get to see that the carrier frequency will match up with what I've learned? Assuming that the carrier frequency of the AKAI protocol matches IR's decode of 19138, do I use KM with a Device Type of VCR, an arbitrary Setup Code number, Protocol Name of AKAI, and Device Code of 2?

I assume you're asking about the ID-000D signals, not the Pioneer signals.

Yes, but for the Pioneer CD, is there a built in setup code for it, or should I use KM with a Device Type of CD, an arbitrary Setup Code number, Protocol Name of Pioneer, and Device Code of 160?

The Readme for DecodeIR says that device4.xls calls those "Akai". Since that was written, both KM and RM were changed to also call it Akai.

I'm not sure whether the "comp" setting is right in KM and RM. DecodeIr looks like it expects comp for this protocol (and I'm pretty sure that's correct) and KM and RM look like they don't.

If that is incorrect (in KM and RM), then you'd need to use device 5 instead of the correct device 2 on the setup sheet, and use only EFC's from the decode, not OBCs.

I'm not sure about the term "comp" (complement?), but the only way I'll have to pre-test this is to program the 8810, then send the codes to my Cinema 7+, then download them to IR, then compare them one by one. The fan that I'll need to control is an hour's drive away. While there, I'll have neither the equipment (computer running IR & KM), nor the time to do much troubleshooting. I bought another 8810 today in case I could use it for the code verification step. I'll leave my trusty programmed Cinema7+ with mumsy if all else fails.

Previously, On the Cinema6+, I had mumsy's JVC TV, the Pioneer CD, and the Fan all on the TV button. Is that arrangement possible with KM? Do I use Keymoves, the Device Combiner, or is it all taken care of when I try using the 8811 extender? To summarize, what tools do I use to combine the functions from all devices onto the 8811 TV Buttons?

Thank you,
Mike

[johnsfine]

I was put off by the weird frequency shown by IR.

You're right. The pulse widths are all wrong as well.

You seem to have the same structure as Akai protocol but with half the clock speed. The modulation is a half the normal frequency and the pulses are twice as wide.

I'm pretty sure there is no built in protocol for that, nor previous JP1 upgrade.

It is possible the device counts cycles rather than measuring durations, in which case Akai would work. But more likely not.

It sounds like you'll need a new Protocol created by PB. I'll see if I have time a little later.

but for the Pioneer CD, is there a built in setup code for it, or should I use KM with a Device Type of CD, an arbitrary Setup Code number, Protocol Name of Pioneer, and Device Code of 160?

It was device number 162, not 160 (in the learned signals you posted). That is setup code CD/0032. You can see the details in devices4.xls and decide for yourself whether it is close enough, or you want to patch it with keymoves or you want to replace it with a new upgrade. I haven't checked the JP1 file archives, but Pioneer CD's are so common and so consistent that I'm sure someone must have posted that upgrade already.

the only way I'll have to pre-test this is to program the 8810, then send the codes to my Cinema 7+, then download them to IR, then compare them one by one.

That sounds like a good idea. But I think comparing just a few keys will be enough to determine whether the process is right.

The fan that I'll need to control is an hour's drive away. While there, I'll have neither the equipment (computer running IR & KM), nor the time to do much troubleshooting.

That sure makes things harder.

Previously, On the Cinema6+, I had mumsy's JVC TV, the Pioneer CD, and the Fan all on the TV button. Is that arrangement possible with KM? Do I use Keymoves, the Device Combiner, or is it all taken care of when I try using the 8811 extender?

How did you combine them on the Cinema6+ ?

If the sets of keys fit the groups defined by the extender (see its documentation) then that is the easiest way to combine. KeyMoves are next easiest and the extender gives you room for a lot of keymoves. The device combiner also could be used. KM must be used for the device combiner. If you choose a keymove approach you could use the external functions feature of KM to define it there, but you could get the same end result more easily defining the keymoves in IR. If you use the extender's dynamic HT features the macros for that are done in IR, not KM.

None of those methods is wrong. Use the one you find easier.

[bufordtdawg]

You're right. The pulse widths are all wrong as well. ...
I'll see if I have time a little later.

Thank you John. I was struggling with the PB documentation and finally cried "Uncle".

It was device number 162, not 160 (in the learned signals you posted). That is setup code CD/0032.
You can see the details in devices4.xls and decide for yourself whether it is close enough, or you want to patch it with keymoves or you want to replace it with a new upgrade. I haven't checked the JP1 file archives, but Pioneer CD's are so common and so consistent that I'm sure someone must have posted that upgrade already.

I looked at the posted CD upgrades, and they seem to be of the 2 CMD or 3 CMD variety and not compatible with the combiner protocol. I just looked at CD/0032 in devices4.xls. All of the functions I need are there and then some. I really only want just 7 of the functions, but a few should be on different buttons. This sounds like I can use CD/0032 with device combiner, but I won't be able to add the fan functions using the combiner because the protocol from PB is not native. Or did I misread a note about combiner somewhere?

How did you combine them on the Cinema6+ ?

On the TV button, I selected the JVC TV device, then I just learned the 9 fan buttons followed by the 7 CD buttons.

If the sets of keys fit the groups defined by the extender (see its documentation) then that is the easiest way to combine. KeyMoves are next easiest and the extender gives you room for a lot of keymoves. The device combiner also could be used. KM must be used for the device combiner. If you choose a keymove approach you could use the external functions feature of KM to define it there, but you could get the same end result more easily defining the keymoves in IR. If you use the extender's dynamic HT features the macros for that are done in IR, not KM.

None of those methods is wrong. Use the one you find easier.

Hmmm... I've never tried an extender (The learning capability has always been my security blanket). I don't recall how I managed to have several volume and mute keys show up as Keymoves in IR. Whether I used IR or KM or some other method is a mystery that I failed to document when setting up the Cinema6+. I'll have to read up on Keymoves.

Perhaps what I should do is just use my Cinema7+ to teach the 8810 the 9 fan buttons and the 7 CD buttons after using KM & IR to program the 8810. I could then do one final download to IR to save the resultant to disk. That's close to the process that worked with the Cinema6+, but I had the original remotes available. It would save you from generating a new fan protocol. Is a copy of a copy of a copy the same as the original copy?

If Murphy's law prevails, Poodle Mutt will sprout wings and chew the blades off the IR fan two days after I present the programmed 8810 remote to mumsy.

Thanks again,
Mike

[Mark Pierson]

I won't be able to add the fan functions using the combiner because the protocol from PB is not native. Or did I misread a note about combiner somewhere?

As long as the PB protocol uses 1-byte commands, you should be able to use it with the DC on an 8810 (an S3C8 remote). From the DC help text:

Any protocols specified in the Device Combiner MUST use 1-byte function commands. P8 and M6-style remotes also require that the protocols MUST be built-in (not an upgrade).

NOTE: On S3C8 remotes, when specifying an upgraded protocol ID, the user MUST ensure that the protocol code is installed on the remote (using IR), as KM has no way to verify this.

[bufordtdawg]

Hello Mark,

As long as the PB protocol uses 1-byte commands, you should be able to use it with the DC on an 8810 (an S3C8 remote). From the DC help text:

Any protocols specified in the Device Combiner MUST use 1-byte function commands. P8 and M6-style remotes also require that the protocols MUST be built-in (not an upgrade).

Thank you for pointing out that the 8810 is not constrained like the P8 and M6805. I'm going to try again to use the combiner to put something useful on the FAV button of the 8811. It seems that I'm the only one having trouble in that regard. Once I have the FAV button programmed, the 8810 should become as capable as my old Cinema7, and I should be able to make it behave identically using the same techniques.

I'll try the extender out on the second one that I bought, so that I'll be less gun-shy in the future.

Best regards,
Mike

[bufordtdawg]

Hello,

To make a short story -- long, I managed to program the FAV key on an 8810 using Device Combiner. I was successful using KM version 8.30, but unsuccessful using Remote Master V1.08. The two programs offer different Upgrade Protocols as well as different Device Upgrades.

To keep things simple, I started both KM and RM with new sheets and specified the 8810 remote. I made an upgrade device with setup code 1476, Protocol ID 00 C4, Fixed Data = 0. I made one function, Pg Down = 172 on device 0. I put that function, Pg Down, on the FAV button (FAV in KM, FAV/SCAN in RM). KM did not produce a Key Move, but it works as advertised only after I added a few more functions (see below). RM did produce a Key Move, and its FAV button behaved similarly as it does in the native remote, which is to emit a key code every six seconds.

Remote Master did successfully program other keys using Device Combiner Protocol. But when the FAV key is pressed, the 8810 starts cycling through a seqence of numbers, outputting one number every six seconds. The numbers are in the sequence 0,0,0,0,0,0,0,0,4,5. As two of the five functions, I programmed the four and five keys.

Keymap Master seems to have another limitation of its own. I was only able to program the FAV key on the 8810 when I had at least four other functions defined on the functions page, and at least four buttons defined on the buttons page. Fewer than 5 functions defined would produce no output from the FAV key. Fewer than 4 buttons assigned would make the FAV key behave as if it had just the native 8810 programming in that the 8810 LED would flash every six seconds after pressing FAV.

I'm happy enough with using Keymap Master to program the 8810 with Device Combiner so that I can get the FAV key working. If someone with more savvy wants to take a look, I can upload my KM, RM, and IR files. Perhaps I should have known that I should have used KM in favor of RM for programming the FAV key, but I read no warnings in that regard. On the other hand, being new to RM, it is also likely that I committed some elementary blunder.

Here's the minimum upgrade protocol and device upgrade that worked with KM

Upgrade Protocol 0 = 01 44 (S3C8+) Device Combiner (KM v8.30)
00 00 22 76 6F 04 6B 0E 56 6F E3 56 00 DF B0 0D
E4 03 05 E4 04 06 B0 04 08 06 96 10 04 90 05 6B
03 E4 05 0D 38 04 2C FF E7 62 5A E7 32 59 E3 42
E3 52 1C 03 E3 72 D7 17 1E A2 36 3B F7 97 01 FF
06 D9 02 56 7E BF C6 CA 01 00 C6 C2 17 32 70 C3
70 C2 C6 DA 10 DB 1F 10 76 5B 5D 00 C4
End

Upgrade Code 0 = 3D C4 (Cable/1476) General Instrument CFT2200 (KM v8.30)
44 00 80 00 81 00 DC 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00
20 00 A0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 5C
End


Here's the equivalent from Remote Master

Upgrade protocol 0 = 01 44 (S3C80) Device Combiner
00 00 22 08 06 96 10 04 90 05 6b 03 e4 05 0d 38
04 2c ff e7 62 45 e7 32 44 e3 42 e3 52 1c 03 e3
72 d7 17 1e a2 36 3b f7 97 01 ff 06 d9 02 56 7e
bf c6 ca 01 00 c6 c2 17 32 70 c3 70 c2 c6 da 10
db 1f 10 76 46 48 00 c4
End

Upgrade code 0 = 3d c4 (Cable/1476) GI_Cable_8810_Minimum (RM v1.08)
44 00 80 00 81 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 20 00 a0 00 00 00 00
00 00 00 00 00 dc
KeyMoves
30 f4 35 c4 00 a8«Pg Up»
End

[gfb107]

RM doesn't have support for FAV/SCAN, mostly because no one, until now, has ever asked for it.

Hopefully one of the experts is watching and will explain how the FAV/SCAN support works, so I can add it to RM.

[Mark Pierson]

Keymap Master seems to have another limitation of its own. I was only able to program the FAV key on the 8810 when I had at least four other functions defined on the functions page, and at least four buttons defined on the buttons page. Fewer than 5 functions defined would produce no output from the FAV key. Fewer than 4 buttons assigned would make the FAV key behave as if it had just the native 8810 programming in that the 8810 LED would flash every six seconds after pressing FAV.

You're saying that this upgrade (with only Page Down:172 assigned to Fav) doesn't work?

Upgrade Code 0 = 3D C4 (Cable/1476)
44 00 01 00 DC
End

I really don't know how the Fav/Scan support works with the Device Combiner since that ability was added by Rob. Hopefully he'll see this and be able to tell what might be wrong.

[bufordtdawg]

Hello Mark,

Yes, that is the exact Device Upgrade that I tried. On a strange note, the same process works with a Millennium B04 remote. Hmmm...

Here's the output from KM for the 8810 and Millennium. The Millennium works, the 8810 doesn't.

8810 using device combiner to program FAV key with GI Cable 1476 PageDown code 172.
Does NOT work. FAV key causes no led flash nor any output that the cable box can see.


Upgrade Code 0 = 0D C4 (Cable/1476) keymap-master Device Upgrade (KM v8.30)
44 00 00 05 00 00 00 DC
End




Upgrade Protocol 0 = 01 44 (S3C8) Device Combiner (KM v8.30)
00 00 22 08 06 96 10 04 90 05 6B 03 E4 05 0D 38
04 2C 80 E7 62 41 E7 32 40 E3 42 E3 52 1C 03 E3
72 D7 17 1E A2 36 3B F7 97 01 FF 06 D9 02 56 8A
EF C6 C2 0A 69 70 C3 70 C2 C6 DA 16 EC 1F 16 8F
42 44 00 C4
End

Same as above but Millennium 4 B04 remote. FAV key issues a Pg Down.


Upgrade Code 0 = 3D C4 (Cable/1476) keymap-master Device Upgrade (KM v8.30)
44 00 01 00 DC
End

Upgrade Protocol 0 = 01 44 (S3C8+) Device Combiner (KM v8.30)
00 00 22 76 6F 04 6B 0E 56 6F E3 56 00 DF B0 0D
E4 03 05 E4 04 06 B0 04 08 06 96 10 04 90 05 6B
03 E4 05 0D 38 04 2C FF E7 62 5A E7 32 59 E3 42
E3 52 1C 03 E3 72 D7 17 1E A2 36 3B F7 97 01 FF
06 D9 02 56 7E BF C6 CA 01 00 C6 C2 17 32 70 C3
70 C2 C6 DA 10 DB 1F 10 76 5B 5D 00 C4
End


Best regards,
Mike

[mtakahar]

It looks like the remote requring digit codes defined in the device upgrade either via digit map index or fully described codes. This kinda makes sense from the original Fav/Scan feature point of view because the remote can't set the channel without knowing the codes for digits.


Hal

Edit: I previously thought it was falling back to another device without the digit buttons, but I was wrong about this.