xnappo wrote:A counter quote from a user who has never used IR before using RM-IR without upgrade keymoves hidden:
"When I am in the main part of the application, there is a tab called 'keymoves'. This appears to be some sort of centralized place to edit the buttons without going into the device key assignment one at a time, however only some of my key assignments are showing up there. Why???"
xnappo
I still disagree with the calling these keymoves hidden. They are visible in the device upgrade.
Did this user expect to see all function assignments on the keymove tab, including the keymapped (a term I am using for functions assigned to buttons in the keymap of a device upgrade) ones? Or only the ones that happened to generate keymoves? I suspect (s)he expected to see keymapped as well as keymoved functions, so that IR's behavior would also be counter intuitive.
You did not fail to convince me. It has been accepted as a feature request. It just hasn't been implemented yet.
Capn Trips wrote:Guys, I posed this same concern (about hidden keymoves and protocol upgrades in RMIR well over a year ago, and failed to convince Greg of its importance to allow the user to at least SELECT whether or not they are hidden. The silence from the rest of the community was deafening. I welcome your renewed interest, as I think this is absolutely necessary, regardless of paradigms.
As a minimum, you should be able to see what is consuming all of your memory of a particular type without wading through a dozen-or so upgrades, beginner or expert alike.
gfb107 wrote:
I still disagree with the calling these keymoves hidden. They are visible in the device upgrade.
Did this user expect to see all function assignments on the keymove tab, including the keymapped (a term I am using for functions assigned to buttons in the keymap of a device upgrade) ones? Or only the ones that happened to generate keymoves? I suspect (s)he expected to see keymapped as well as keymoved functions, so that IR's behavior would also be counter intuitive.
Yes, I should have said 'visible on the Keymoves tab' or something - and yes that is my point, to a new user, this behavior would be counter-intuitive.
Do you acknowledge that what you expect to see is influenced in large part by how IR works today and your expert knowledge of JP1?
ElizabethD wrote:I thought I was the only one, so it's good, Rob, that you posted your thoughts
Because, while I think RMIR is great, for me NOT seeing things I expected is what keeps me from using it. Early on I tried and tried and nitpicked Greg, but eventually gave up.
I see what you're saying, but memory management is very difficult if you can't see all your keymoves in one place. If they impact my keymove memory, I want to at least see them on the keymove tab.
mdavej wrote:I see what you're saying, but memory management is very difficult if you can't see all your keymoves in one place. If they impact my keymove memory, I want to at least see them on the keymove tab.
Yes, for memory management, we need a pulldown that enables viewing keymoves that come from upgrades. Greg has acknowledged this and accepted the existing request in the bug system.
The problem is every time this comes up people start comparing it to IR which gets the issue side-tracked. It isn't supposed to be just like IR and that is not a valid reason to change it. Wanting to manage memory is a valid reason.
We need something to help with memory management. That does not necessarily mean showing device upgrade keymoves on the keymove tab. For one thing it wouldn't include special function keymoves.
The reason the comparisons with IR are valid are because, apart from the Special Protocols - where I agree with your point, IR gives us an accurate picture of what's in our remote's memory.
I think we're going to have to agree to disagree that RMIR is hiding things, but regardless of whether you think we think this way because we've already used IR or not, the point is that's how we think. So, in order for you to get the hardcore experts to start using RMIR, you have to make it do what we want, otherwise we'll keep using IR.
I think RMIR is coming along nicely, and I especially like the seemless integration with RM, but for day to day purposes I still need to use IR if I want to be able to see exactly what's in the remote that I'm looking at.
Rob www.hifi-remote.com Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
The Robman wrote:
I think RMIR is coming along nicely, and I especially like the seemless integration with RM, but for day to day purposes I still need to use IR if I want to be able to see exactly what's in the remote that I'm looking at.
So - lets try to take a more productive tack. If you had never seen IR and wanted a way to see the upgrade and keymove memory and what exactly was taking up what, how would you want that displayed? As Greg hinted, there may be a better way to do that. If the best way is to have a menu option to show keymoves from upgrades in the keymoves tab, then so be it - but we also need to think outside the box.
I would want to see each memory bank and what was in it. I would also want to see which protocol upgrades were present. In other words, I would want to see all the stuff that's being hidden (call it what you will) today.
I don't see much point in prolonging the "is it hidden or not" or "would you want it if you'd never seen IR" discussions.
We are the users and we have a tool that does what we want.
You are trying to sell us a new product that, while it has some nice new features, doesn't do everything that we want. So let me turn the question around, why should I switch when I have a product that does what a want and it doesn't sound like the new product is going to do what I want?
Rob www.hifi-remote.com Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
The Robman wrote:
You are trying to sell us a new product that, while it has some nice new features, doesn't do everything that we want. So let me turn the question around, why should I switch when I have a product that does what a want and it doesn't sound like the new product is going to do what I want?
As I have said, Greg has already agreed that he will add the feature to show the protocols and upgrade keymoves. However we should be sure we understand the reasons for doing so in case there is a better way to display the same information without just blindly copying IR which was developed with limitations since it did not have direct access to the upgrades.
I actually think that even the 'Special Functions' and 'Keymove' tabs are too much copying from IR. There could be one tab for system-level mapping and handles macros, special functions and non-upgrade keymoves. Then there could be another that is a memory-management tab showing and linking to the upgrades and system-level things taking up memory.
When is a keymove not a keymove? Don't all keymoves link back to an upgrade or built in setup code? What would be your justification for EVER seeing a keymove? I understand that they are hidden when they are assigned to the same device button as the upgrade/setup code to which they are linked, so what about the keymoves assigned to other device buttons? Are they not also part of the same upgrade?
Let's say that I have added an upgrade for a stereo receiver and I have used some keymoves to program the L1/L2/L3/L4 buttons in the AUD device mode, and I've also used some keymoves to program the volume buttons in some of the other device modes. Would you hide the L1/L2/L3/L4 keymoves but show the VOLUME keymoves? And if so, why? Aren't they all part of the receiver upgrade and wouldn't they all need to be deleted if I get a new receiver?
So when should you show a keymove? By the current rationale, it should only be when the keymove is not associated with an upgrade or a setup code that is used on any of the device buttons, and how often would such a keymove occur?
So if that means that we will end up showing none of the keymoves, we might as well show all of them (special protocol keymoves included).
Rob www.hifi-remote.com Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
The Robman wrote:When is a keymove not a keymove? Don't all keymoves link back to an upgrade or built in setup code? What would be your justification for EVER seeing a keymove? I understand that they are hidden when they are assigned to the same device button as the upgrade/setup code to which they are linked, so what about the keymoves assigned to other device buttons? Are they not also part of the same upgrade?
Right - that is why I was saying just combine non-upgrade key moves with special functions. I only use two. Deactivate extender and discrete power off for a device I want to turn off from another device.
The Robman wrote:What is a non-upgrade keymove? What's the difference between using keymoves to augment a built in setup code and using them to augment an upgrade?
So sure - I am probably being too KM/IR with my one keymove to discrete off my receiver from my cable device. I *could* make it an external functional of my cable box. Then I would have only the 'deactivate extender'. But I have to admit it is awkward adding a totally unrelated device to an RM upgrade to me too - though that is only for historical reasons.
I am sure others have examples? That is what I was getting at - the whole tab is not very useful in the RM-IR paradigm.
