URC6131 Pip Swap & Move

[Tiros]

First of all, I'm new at this so please do not assume anything.

I want these 3 keys to punch thru to TV. The problem is that when the device is set to PVR these keys do not make IR flash. I Tried to bind PVR->PIP to the TV device PIP button (in IR) but it seems like since PVR device does not include PIP button, no IR. I can't set the PVR to be TV device because PVR functions are not available for TV layout.

It seems like if the keys do not appear in the device type they are not even checked for keymove?
Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

To further complicate my noobie efforts, the TV (XBR450 upgrade) device uses some kind of device combiner, and the PIP code needs to have an extra byte to identify the protocall (according to KM). I used only the single byte EFC in IR for my testing purposes. But, no data, not wrong data, is what I see.

Any advice?

[Mark Pierson]

You'll need to setup key moves for those functions in the PVR device. For example:

Bound Device=PVR
Bound Key=PIP
Device Type=TV
Setup Code=the 4-digit Setup Code for your TV
EFC/Hex Cmd=the 2-byte hex from the PIP function for the TV (you need to select the 'Hex Cmd' button.

[Tiros]

You'll need to setup key moves for those functions in the PVR device. For example:

Bound Device=PVR
Bound Key=PIP
Device Type=TV
Setup Code=the 4-digit Setup Code for your TV
EFC/Hex Cmd=the 2-byte hex from the PIP function for the TV (you need to select the 'Hex Cmd' button.

Thats exactly what I did. (Except I used one byte EFC for last step)
When I press PIP I get no output from the remote. The PVR device does not seem to let those 3 keys work. Only way I have ever seen them work is when the TV device is selected. KM shows those keys as only available for TV device, but I thought that IR could override this situation.

[Mark Pierson]

Thats exactly what I did. (Except I used one byte EFC for last step)

Have you tried it with the 2-byte hex command? Remember that if your KM upgrade specifies 2 bytes of hex for a function, an EFC entry in IR won't work (the command needs both bytes and an EFC can only specify one).

If you're using the latest version of IR (4.01), it should work. The 6131 uses what we've been calling a "new style" key move. It's possible you might need the extender to make this work (the extender supports "normal" key moves), but I don't know (or remember) enough about the 6131 to say for certain.

[mr_d_p_gumby]

[Thats exactly what I did. (Except I used one byte EFC for last step)

And that will not work on a 6131 (without an extender) because of the "new style" key moves Mark mentioned.

If the setup works with EFCs, then you must enter the key move in IR as a two-byte hex command, with the first byte being 00, the second byte being the EFC.

The above is only valid for the "new-style" keymoves used in the 6131 or Atlas DVR (so far).

If the setup code uses a 2-byte (non-EFC) keymove, then we'll have to explain the more complicated way around the "new-style".

[mr_d_p_gumby]

Just to clarify what I said above, you have to enter the hex value of the EFC, not the Hex Cmd that KM shows you.

For example, say you want to use the EFC 222. You would enter 00 DE in IR. You can use Window's calculator in scientific mode to convert the decimal EFCs to hex values.

[The Robman]

I think with the URC-6131 it's better to just recommend that people do the key move on the remote itself. This also has the added advantage that you don't need to knwo what the EFCs for the functions in question are.

If you want to copy these buttons to several different modes (eg, VCR, PVR, etc) then just do one keymove of each button on the remote, then "clone" them using IR.exe

[Tiros]

Thanks Mr. Gumby.
That bit about entering 2 byte EFC2Hex straightend out some problems for me. So it seems that is a work arounf for the 6131 style keymove and will work in unextended units, right?

The device I'm trying to keymove to is the Sony XBR450 upgrade file. It uses a "combiner" protocall especially for the PIP key (it seems to me). It uses the byte #2 ($01) in KM for the PIP key and $00 for all other functions.

If I use your Hex Command method to move to a different single byte device, everything is good. If I try to map to the pip key on the combiner when I press the PIP my rmote light comes on and stays on, until I reset. Crashed I guess..

[The Robman]

Tiros, if you want to know exactly what the hex code should look like, do the key move manually and then look at it in IR.exe.

[mr_d_p_gumby]

Tiros, if you want to know exactly what the hex code should look like, do the key move manually and then look at it in IR.exe.

Rob's correct, and this method obviously will work, but it won't give you the hex codes that we traditionally think of. You need not read the rest of this, unless you are curious.

What you will find after creating a keymove on the remote itself is one hex number representing the button to which the function is assigned in the source setup code. This is the same button number you would see in IR inside a macro. This is the only method that works with the "new-style" keymoves for setup codes with more than one byte of button data, such as your combiner setup. The disadvantage, obviously, is that it can only refer to a function that is mapped to a button in a setup code. In extreme cases, you might need to make a dummy upgrade with the function mapped to a button so that you can create a keymove for it. (Remember, I did say this would be more complicated! )

[Tiros]

Thanks guys this info helped a lot!
I did as Rob suggested and the keymove worked fine. When I look at the byte code in the Keymove on the combiner in IR it is only one character! From what Mr. Gumby said, I guess this is the physical keynumber bound to that device. When I look in KM though, I do not see that number anywhere! If I try to use that code in another keymove, IR translates it into a different number. I do not understand. The value optained from downloading the remote is $A4, so what do I put in for EFC or Hex Cmd to get the $A4. I am still missing a piece of this puzzle. This leads me to the million dollar question, can anyone please define:
EFC
OBC
HEX CMD
I have a general idea on what to use where but I really want to know exactly how all this works. It seems like you can convert EFC to OBC but what about Hex Cmd? What is the formula for conversion between these types?

Another question:
Can I keymove to a button that has an EFC assigned to it, but it is not available on the keypad because the device type (TV) does not enable those buttons. In other words, I assigned some TV commands, such as direct input select, to the PLAY button, the play button is not active in the TV device. Can I still do a Keymove to that button?

Thanks again for all your help

[The Robman]

Q1. The URC-6131 has a completely new way of storing keymoves. The hex code used is different when the button is really a key move than buttons that were programmed using advanced codes.

In the old days, you could use a key move to determine what the EFC of a particular button is, but UEI has done away with this, presumably as an attempt to stop us from being able to discover EFCs this way.

It's for this reason that when the remote in question is a URC_6131, I just recommend that people use the manual method of programming keymoves (rather than doing it through IR).

Q2....

Can I keymove to a button that has an EFC assigned to it, but it is not available on the keypad because the device type (TV) does not enable those buttons. In other words, I assigned some TV commands, such as direct input select, to the PLAY button, the play button is not active in the TV device. Can I still do a Keymove to that button?

If the button isn't available in TV mode, how can it have an EFC assigned to it, other than via a keymove??? I don't understand the question.

[Tiros]

The TV is defined as a DVD device in KM. This allows EFC to be mapped to each key for that device. In IR, General tab I set type to TV. This inhibits the remote from responding to non TV keys, but the device tab still has them. I was hoping to create a macro (I said keymove previously, sorry) tied to those inhibited keys. I could set the type to DVD, but I didn't want users to be confused if they press an inhibited key and something happens.

Something else I read led me to believe that you can create a macro with just keymoves. I guess you just put multiple EFC in the IR keymove area. Will this method work for the 6131?

I hope someone can define OBC, EFC and HexCmd. I would like to know the math to convert these data types and understand the distinction between them. Perhaps someone can point me to the document that describes exactly what these 3 fields are.

BTW Robman,
Do you know anything about PICS? I seem to remember your name being associated with another non JP1 hacking project.

[mr_d_p_gumby]

I guess this is the physical keynumber bound to that device. When I look in KM though, I do not see that number anywhere!

None of our current tools support this keymove method yet, so it's really hard to figure out all the needed information, and in general, is quite confusing if someone misinterprets these comments to apply to other remotes. (Which is why the boss keeps telling me not to tell you about this stuff. )

You are correct that it is the keynumber (in hex). You won't be able to find the keynumber in KM or practically anywhere else. The only place you can find it is in the RDF file's [Buttons] section. In order to understand what's there, you may have to read the RDF spec document. This is probably not a pleasant prospect for most users.

If I understand you correctly, you are trying to make a keymove for a setup code that uses a two-byte protocol, and does not currently map the EFC to any button. If the setup code is an upgrade that you have made, the easiest way to do this would be to map the EFC to an otherwise unused button. (It cannot be a keymove in KM.) Then you can do the final keymove on the remote itself.

If there are no available buttons in you upgrade, then you'll have to make a "dummy upgrade". Make a copy of your current upgrade under a different name, and assign a new setup code number. Delete all the button assignments on the Buttons tab. Now pick any button and assign the desired function to it. Load this upgrade into your remote, assign it to a device button temporarily, do the final keymove on the remote itself, and then put the device button back to your normal setup code. Whew!

Having said all this, and to keep Rob from removing my kneecaps, I should point out that you can bypass all of this "new-style" keymove stuff if you switch over to using the 6131 extender (Steve, where are you when we need you? ).

[Nils_Ekberg]

I can only reinforce the recommendation to go with the extender. When I got a 6131 I never did anything with it except putting the batteries in until I loaded the extender. I somewhat understand the concept of the "new keymoves" and that was enough knowledge for me to know that I didn't want to bother with it.

Using the enclosed "6131_extender1_.txt" file into IR as the base then loading devices is so much easier to understand and work with.