Camcorder Advice sought

[Capn Trips]

I have recently lost the ability to use my Hi8 Camcorder (stolen!) and am looking for a replacement machine. In a previous string, zaphod wrote:

The only digital machine capable of playing the analog tapes in the USA has been the Sony DCR-TRV480 (digital recording and analog/digital playback).

Hi8 only machines seem to be available here for about $240 US but the Digital 8 only machine (DCR-TRV280) seems to be the only one stocked right now. Regardless of any advertising, D8 and MiniDV use the same recording format so MiniDV will not necessarily give a better image that D8 and creating DVDs will yield about the same result with all three formats (D8, Hi8, MiniDV).

I'm not an expert on digital video formats (although I'm pretty clear on PAL vs. NTSC, and the differences between the analog formats - VHS, Beta, 8mm, Super-VHS, Super-Beta (anyone remember THAT one?), and HI8) so a short primer on the various digital formats wqould be helpful.

I am thinking that a D8 machine would in my case be most practical - digital recording that I can then Firewire into my computer and edit and burn DVDs, and still have backward compatibilty to play my old HI8 tapes.

But is the D8 format dying (if the MEDIUM is not long-lived, that's OK, I can stock up on blank tapes, but if the FORMAT is different then I may need to reconsider)?

What are the differences between various format digital camcorder machines? Mini-DV vs. DVD vs. Hard-disc recording vs. HI8.

Based on Zaphods remarks above, am I to assume that all (NON-Hi-Def) Digital video recording formats are basically the same, but simply use different MEDIA upon which to record?

Thanks for any advice.

The Capn

[Capn Trips]

I am thinking that a D8 machine would in my case be most practical - digital recording that I can then Firewire into my computer and edit and burn DVDs, and still have backward compatibilty to play my old HI8 tapes.

WHOAAA!! As I continue my research, I have discovered that contrary to my (unreasonable?) belief, all D8 camcorders will NOT necessarily play back tapes recorded in 8/Hi8 format! I'll have to
(1) be much little more selective/restricted about what models I look at to ensure dual playback capability, or
(2) consider a straight Hi8 Camcorder purchase - delaying my entry into the digital video age, or
(3) get a Hi8 VCR only (pretty d@mned expensive from what I can find on eBay) PLUS a new Digital camcorder of any (best?) format, not limiting myself to Hi8.

Comments? Opinions?

[zaphod7501]

I am thinking that a D8 machine would in my case be most practical - digital recording that I can then Firewire into my computer and edit and burn DVDs, and still have backward compatibilty to play my old HI8 tapes.

The last backward compatible D8 machine in the USA was the DCR-TRV480. Generally the models in the other regions add additional letters to the base model (like DCRTRV480E). There used to be Hitachi models that were OK but I don't know if any are still around. The TRV4xxx models are the backward compatible newer ones (450, 460, 480) The CCD-TRVxxx are the analog 8 models.

But is the D8 format dying (if the MEDIUM is not long-lived, that's OK, I can stock up on blank tapes, but if the FORMAT is different then I may need to reconsider)?

The manufacturers would like to move on since there are no more features to add to keep the price high on step-up models, so they may disappear. The tape itself (physical characteristics) and the machines should last 2 or 3 times as long as Mini-DV tapes and machines.

What are the differences between various format digital camcorder machines? Mini-DV vs. DVD vs. Hard-disc recording vs. HI8.

Based on Zaphods remarks above, am I to assume that all (NON-Hi-Def) Digital video recording formats are basically the same, but simply use different MEDIA upon which to record?

This gets a little more complicated when we start looking at your side of the pond; or simpler in some ways, but different. NTSC=720x480, PAL=720x576, but all standard definition digital, both NTSC and PAL are 720x576 causing major conversion problems in the USA. You should be able to create DVDs with fewer re-encoding hassles. It also means that the final DVD result will be almost identical regardless of the recording format since they are all 720x576 to begin with in PAL land.

DVD disk recorders: lowest resolution, CRC errors from recording on a moving transport (I can't hold a camcorder perfectly still, can you), editing will require "ripping" the disk (CRC errors will upset file transfer and VOB format does not lend itself to editing)

HDD recorders: nice idea but the drives are not externally removable. Internally some (like JVC) plug into a standard PCMCIA holder. I have not been able to mess with one but I suspect a nonstandard format, possibly encrypted, with no way to copy the file in a raw mpeg format for editing in a high speed transfer mode. A great idea if the drives are removable and recorded in standard mpeg form, a really bad idea if locked into proprietary formatting and non-removable disks

Mini-DV: small and light, very fragile (tapes and machines), even simple mechanical problems tend to be irrepairable, exact same resolution as other digital formats (and in your case the same as analog formats) so no particular advantage in picture quality.

Hi8 and D8: solid mechanism with years of development. Parts should be around for another 10 years. Repairable if you break it (as opposed to electronic failures which tend to be unrepairable on any "digital" electronic device - from from Walkmen to TVs)

Your choice should be influenced by the method that you want to use to create DVDs. PC conversion can be a difficult and time consuming operation when dealing with avi files.

There are steps to creating a DVD that cannot be skipped or combined (regardless of what the bundled software says).
Capture
Convert (optional in some specific cases and can be done in a different order).
Edit
Author
Burn
(visit me at http://www.SHSPVR.com or http://www.VideoReDo.com - Hauppauge capture cards and an editing forum)

Edit: Your conversion method will depend on how many tapes you have and how many hours per tape you are willing to spend on the process.

Don't buy any Ebay 8mm VCR decks. All of them are 10 years old and tend to suffer catastrophic electronic failures. I've had three in the shop this fall from Ebay purchases and all were unrepairable.

[Capn Trips]

Thanks zaph (or Steve),

Steve-to-Steve, I need to point out that although I am physically in the UK, I am American, have predominantly American "kit" - as they call it here - and will return to the US in the near future, so I am an NTSC kind of guy. All of my camcorder videos are NTSC, be they my own Hi8 stuff or VHS from other providers (e.g. relatives and friends) so although I can VIEW all formats and regions (multi-system TVs and VCR, multi-region DVD players), my camcording is limited to NTSC to date.

So (wanting to hear what I want to hear ) you're suggesting a recent-vintage D8 backward compatible machine (DCR-TRV480/460/450/351/350/X40<not 140>/X30/X20 appear to be the only ones from this millennium), based upon proven technology and robustness of design and manufacture. Sounds good to me.

Converting ANY analog recording to digital will require manually playing it into the computer and recording, regardless what what playback machine I use, but my understanding is that the D8 transfer to a computer via firewire is somewhat quicker.

I presume newer is likely to be better, etc. But I can't find even the newest 480 for sale as a "NEW" item (but I'm just beginning the search). Will have to search harder.

P.S. I've just purchased Pinnacle AV Studio (version 9 Deluxe, I believe)- haven't started using it yet - is its capture hardware and software adequate for my minimal needs? The PCI card has a Firewire port and connects via a proprietary interface box with S-video, Composite video and RCA Audio L & R inputs and outputs, so I thought it would work for my analog stuff as well as digital. Will visit your forum to get smarter.

Thanks again

[e.axel]

Pinnacle is good stuff!
I thing the cheapest playback (to computer) device is a camcorder. I just got rid of all my DV camcorder stuff. I now do the little movie clip stuff with my digital camera. I bought a broken? DV camcorder on ebay, just the LCD display doesn't work. Works fine for capturing my existing tapes. Cost about $50.

[zaphod7501]

Pinnacle is good stuff!
I thing the cheapest playback (to computer) device is a camcorder. I just got rid of all my DV camcorder stuff. I now do the little movie clip stuff with my digital camera. I bought a broken? DV camcorder on ebay, just the LCD display doesn't work. Works fine for capturing my existing tapes. Cost about $50.

Is the LCD out or is there no image from the lens/imager assembly? (the LCD would work when playing back a tape) If so, there are a large number of cameras with bad imagers that the manufacturers are fixing free under an unadvertised settlement agreement.

[zaphod7501]

P.S. I've just purchased Pinnacle AV Studio (version 9 Deluxe, I believe)- haven't started using it yet - is its capture hardware and software adequate for my minimal needs? The PCI card has a Firewire port and connects via a proprietary interface box with S-video, Composite video and RCA Audio L & R inputs and outputs, so I thought it would work for my analog stuff as well as digital. Will visit your forum to get smarter.

Thanks again

I really have not investigated the Pinnacle but I think some of them have a hardware mpeg encoder. This means that you can record in real time directly to a DVD compatible format that does not have to be re-encoded from avi to mpeg.

I studied the DVD creation process for over 6 months before I bought any hardware or software. I decided that the multi hour process of reencoding a 720x576 avi to a 720x480 mpeg in software for dozens of tapes would not work for me. I went with the Hauppauge tuner cards with hardware mpeg encoders. I can capture S-Video and create DVD compatible mpegs in real time. The editing process then takes about 5 minutes per hour of video. The authoring takes 5 -10 minutes. The burning takes 7 minutes. You have to be comfortable with adding cards to your PC and solving configuration problems before this is a viable option. (My HTPC now has 5 antenna connections and three sets of A/V input cables for three analog tuners and two ATSC tuners, one with QAM and a Hardware DVD/Mpeg decoder card looped back to one A/V input for real time conversion of formats and resolutions)

If you have a lot of tapes and limited time, you might want to consider a stand-alone DVD recorder. The PC can do a far better job but it takes time. I don't care for firewire transfers myself since they have to be reencoded to mpeg after capture.

I prefer the 460 (or 450) over the 480 because the 480 uses a LCD touchscreen for controls. The '30 series were pretty good machines (530?) and have no chronic problems other than connectors from the chassis working loose. If you haven't guessed, I've been servicing camcorders since the BetaMovie in '85.

[Capn Trips]

Good advice, Zaph, and greatly appreciated.

Although I had read up on the Sony D8 machines, I didn't pick up that nuance of difference between the 460 and 480. I agree that a touchscreen control is (imho) weird to use (no Kameleons for ME) and just asking for something else to go wrong, so I'll look harder at tracking down an affordable 460.

[garypen]

FYI - I've had two Sony MiniDV camcorders with touchscreen displays that worked/work like charms. (TRV-38 and HC96) The later even allows you to customize the menu. Put all the most used controls up front.

Also..hated Pinnacle, LOVE Adobe Premiere Elements 3.0. (2.0 is pretty good too.)

[Capn Trips]

So I've picked up a used 480. I LIKE IT! Sure it's bulkier than most new DigiCams, but it's really not so bad, and I can still use it to play my library of Hi8 videos, as well as record digitally.