5 digit efcs, now advanced code section dated

[dave485093]

I just found out about the fact that some of the setup codes on the newer remotes have associated five digit EFCs that are not simply the old 0 to 255 EFCs with 00 in front.

Oh dear, as it was always nice to trudge through the codes as outlined in the section of this site about advanced codes.

My first comment is that the section on advanced codes should be updated in some way to reflect this, as it is now potentially misleading (of course, even the omission of the posibility of the leading 00 in that section is somewhat misleading).

(If I can understand this a little better (well,ok, actually it would need to be alot better, see below), I wouldn't mind attempting to update the copy in that section if needed.)

Second, from what I understand from what johnsfine says in this recent post, it would be impossible to generate some simple set of 5 digit EFCs (EFC5) that would be analogous to the EFC3 0 to 255.

However, in this thread at remotecentral.com there seems to be the suggestion that a simple formula will yield a EFC5 from an EFC3:

"It seems to that:
N = 256xO+14389

N=new code, O=old code"

Although at first it seems there must be some corresponding old code for this to work (but not in the same way as simply adding 00 in front), maybe simply running 0 to 256 through this formula would give a set of 256 EFC5s that are always used, or would that be too much to ask, after all, One for All made these presumably to allow for more codes (although can that be true if they already had surplus up to 1000) and also to be more obscure (the fact they are 2 byte is maybe relevant here)?

Thirdly, I have not seen any 5 digit codes in the advanced codes section. I can't say that I have been through it all, but is it just the case that the advanced codes section is not being maintained anymore? If so that is a pity as I think it is a great section of the site and potentially still helpful for those who do not wish to or cannot use jp1 tools.

I have read in these forums (and remotecentral.com thread above) about getting EFC5 and EFC3 from upgrade files. I tried this with Marantz amp upgrades in RM and didn't have much success as the functions tab did not get populated for the most part, I was only able to get a few entries in it by first loading an amp file then a combiner (I admit I have no idea what I'm doing), but even then the EFC entries appeared incorrect (i.e. because they didn't work when I tried them on my 8820, or 10820 for that matter), (and I couldn't get an EFC5 entry, when I tried selecting a 8820 EFC5 remote it RM had an error as described in the thread above at remotecentral). However, on this thread bluenose posted some HEX codes for marantz amp discrete functions and using the EFC calculator in IR I was able to find one EFC5s (2 byte). (I presume if I could get the ccf mentioned in the download info for Marantz_5200-KM-Official.txt (cannot find this ccf anymore on marantz site) I could get all of the hex codes and convert them like this, or are they even in Marantz_5200-KM-Official.txt, but there just don't seem enough hex codes in that document?) p.s my amp is marantz sr5400 and am using setup code amp/1289 - the function I found was PRO LOGIC II MOVIE with EFC5 60734 (ironically this was derived from the hex codes that blunose gave as being for Prologic 2 music so maybe that is because of the different amp model or some other reason). I found one other code using this method but I can't remember where I found the hex for it - anyway it is DSS 66245. I really want discrete power code ...

Anyway, sorry to digress in the last para but although that is my individual problem maybe it also highlights if it is possible to get EFCs out of upgrade files maybe some users would be willing to do it and post them up in the advanced codes section of this site which sadly seems neglected at the moment. Of course the best way would be some program which can generate the html ... .

[The Robman]

The main section of my site has been somewhat abandoned since JP1 started. Alot of the tricks and work arounds that we developed before JP1 seem so silly now compared to what can do using JP1.

Here's the true story with regards to the EFC5 codes. The old EFC3 codes were only supported by protocols that use 1 byte of variable data, if a protocol used 2 or more variable bytes, it wouldn't support EFC codes.

In newer remotes, the protocols that use 1 variable byte are the ones that use the EFC5 codes where the first 2 digits are zeroes. If you see a setup code where the EFC5 codes true 5 digit codes, this implies that the protocol uses 2 variable bytes of data (and is likely a "combo" protocol).

The true EFC5 codes use a different encryption formula than the old EFC3 codes. I have the formula programmed into a spreadsheet somewhere (and of course, it's built into KM and RM) but I don't remember what it is.

[johnsfine]

in this thread at remotecentral.com there seems to be the suggestion that a simple formula will yield a EFC5 from an EFC3:

"It seems to that:
N = 256xO+14389

N=new code, O=old code"

I didn't check that thread to see if that does work for that set of signals. If it does work there, it still wouldn't work in a different setup code. Probably not even for a different set of signals in that setup code.

I have not seen any 5 digit codes in the advanced codes section. I can't say that I have been through it all, but is it just the case that the advanced codes section is not being maintained anymore?

It certainly isn't being maintained much. There is much more info in upgrade files than in the advanced code area.

Many of the setup codes (especially those that need real 5 digit EFC numbers) have different EFC rules on different models of remote. An advanced code list has no good way to take that into account. The upgrade files can handle that. After loading an upgrade in KM or RM you can change which remote is selected. In most cases (with exceptions gradually getting fixed) the program knows how to fix everything if the rules are different in the remote you switch to.

Anyway, sorry to digress in the last para

I made a quick try to read that para and checked one of your references, but couldn't find the data. I'm sure I could read that para slowly and carefully and check all your references and figure out what is going on, but you really made it hard.

If you aren't using JP1 then you must be using a specific setup code. If it is a built-in setup code in the 8820, just ask for EFC5 help with that specific setup code.

The old EFC3 codes were only supported by protocols that use 1 byte of variable data, if a protocol used 2 or more variable bytes, it wouldn't support EFC codes.

In newer remotes, the protocols that use 1 variable byte are the ones that use the EFC5 codes where the first 2 digits are zeroes. If you see a setup code where the EFC5 codes true 5 digit codes, this implies that the protocol uses 2 variable bytes of data (and is likely a "combo" protocol).

It's a bit more complicated than that, because setup codes change over time. Some setup codes have 1 variable byte (can use 3 digit EFC) in older models but have 2 variable bytes in newer models. Some setup codes with 2 variable bytes in fairly new models have a different 2 variable bytes in even newer models. I'm not sure where those changes hit relative to the first models in which EFC5 worked right. But potentially two different models might both support EFC5 but have different EFC5 codes for the same setup code.

For that majority of setup codes, what Rob said here is correct. If EFC3 codes worked in older models the 00+EFC3 works in newer models. But (your example) Marantz discretes would not be possible in that sort of setup code.

[The Robman]

It's a bit more complicated than that, because setup codes change over time. Some setup codes have 1 variable byte (can use 3 digit EFC) in older models but have 2 variable bytes in newer models. Some setup codes with 2 variable bytes in fairly new models have a different 2 variable bytes in even newer models. I'm not sure where those changes hit relative to the first models in which EFC5 worked right. But potentially two different models might both support EFC5 but have different EFC5 codes for the same setup code.

This is totally true of course, I was trying to make a somewhat generalized statement about the difference between EFC3s and EFC5. There are plenty of examples of where a 1-byte code becomes a 2-byte code (like DVD/0571 for Pioneer DVDs) and where 2-byte codes become 1-byte codes (like VCR/0614 for ReplayTv and VCR/0618 for Tivo), and more rare but still possible, UEI does indeed change the formation of their 1 or 2 bytes codes every so often so the EFC3/5 values would change.

[dave485093]

Rob, you may now think advanced codes lists are silly but over the past two years I have benefited greatly from the ones that I have found on your site. In addition, your archive of general info about One for All stuff (manuals etc., including their old site) is really worthwhile in my opinion.

With regards to the EFCs, if you do search on the web it is clear from looking at forums that quite a few other people are looking for them, and also that almost invariably your list is the one linked to as a solution. In addition, your own forum still seems to have people asking for help who would be satisfied with simply the relevant EFCs. As you and other expert members seem to be increasingly frustrated with requests for help, then an updated list of EFC codes might just be one way to reduce the number of “stupid questions”. (I will grant you that pulling the old main site altogether and no longer seeming available to basic users, “rebranding” as jp1, would be another option here, but that would be a pity.)

If your interests really don’t lie there any more then there is nothing more for it, but as you yourself once said (well I think it was you): “What makes these remotes so unique is the ability to program any key using advanced codes. " Well, of course we now know that it’s jp1 too, but still the EFC function, to be able to get functions not even on the original remote, just by entering a code, is pretty handy.

Really part of amazing functionality for such cheap remotes (well actually remotes at any price). Who knows why OFA/UEI don’t make the EFC function a publicised part of their remotes – and publish the lists themselves (similar things could of course be said of jp1 –why don’t they sell cables and adapt their configuration software for the users??) . . . more realistically though I fear they will increasingly phase out the function.

Incidentally, out of historical interest, Rob, I did see that you have links to a few other places you got some of the codes from initially, but how did you make the larger list in the end? Was it just you doing the editing and people would send you codes or did you have help with the editing, or did you do the editing and finding the codes?

(Oh, and have I missed something as at the start of the advanced codes section it says "please submit your codes on this site" – I couldn’t find anything but the forums to do that – did you ever have a form or something? Anyway, maybe if it is not being updated you could remove that sentence from the intro, unless that would that be too much updating in itself ..)


Well, so much for the updating of EFC lists. Thanks for your replies about EFC5 “encryption”. I don’t understand all of it by any means but from your replies and also my own tinkering the bottom line is I think that something like John Wasser’s tables would be more tricky or even impossible with regards to “true” EFC5 (i.e. supporting 2 byte protocols), but also now we have better tools that in fact can replace the tables – i.e. KM and RM. Anyone writing a doc about how to search for EFC5s (at least of the “2 byte” variety) would better explain how to use KM or RM, as well as upgrade files and perhaps ccfs (with decode ccf) as aids.

In addition, some aspects of EFC5 are actually good, in that it allows setup codes previously not supporting EFC to now support EFC. It is still a pity that different remotes potentially have different EFCs for the same setup codes however.

Anyway, continuing my Marantz example, I did in fact find the codes I wanted (and they do at least work on both my 8820B00 and 10820B00, so there is at least some intercompatibility in EFC5). I did it by finding a ccf for a Marantz sr5300 (similar model number to my sr5400). I ran it through “decode ccf” then opened the resulting text file in a spreadsheet. Meanwhile I opened RM and selected 8820 in the “remote” pull down list. Back to the spreadsheet I looked for the functions I wanted and noticed the Protocol listed for them. Some were RC5 and some RC5x, so back in RM I chose RC5/5x Combo from the “protocol” pull down list. [Oh, of course it didn’t really happen quite like this – I had noticed Johnsfines comment about it being a combo, also had seen RC5/5x somewhere while stumbling on the two codes I found before doing this, but this is how I would do it now!] In RM, I selected the function tab. Then I individually looked up the functions in the spreadsheet and noted their device codes, protocols and OBCs. In the first row of the function table, I clicked on the type box and selected either RC5 or RC5x depending on the protocol of the particular function I was trying. For functions with RC5 protocol I then entered the device number in the RC5 column. Finally I entered the OBC of the function and then read off and tried (on my remote) the EFC5, which had been calculated automatically. For functions with an RC5x protocol I entered the subdevice number in the RC5x subdevice column. I entered the OBC, and then tried the EFC5. With RC5x, I do not understand why, I had to try selecting each one of the four RC5x devices in the RC5x device column, although it often seemed that the second one was the most fruitful (followed by the first). It made no difference whether I entered the correct RC5x device number in the boxes beside the RC5x devices in the setup tab, in any case what mattered was whether it was 1, 2, 3 or 4 in the RC5x list (even putting in different device numbers in the RC5x device boxes in the setup tab gave the same EFC5 for 1, 2, 3 or 4 in the list.)

Some functions were not in the ccf, and so for those I tried OBCs near to similar funcions (remembering Wasser), keeping the device/subdevice the same. This worked in many cases.


Johnsfine, you say I didn’t make my help request easy, and you (I mean all the experts on this site) also seem to make similar observations on a regular basis to others. You also suggested to me that I ask for EFC5 help. Yet in the end, even though I am by no means a jp1 expert, I was able to help myself using your tools. There is an opportunity here. Even if requests are made of you for help in the exact format that you would like, it would still be easiest if there was a reasonably easy to follow guide documenting the kind of thing I did. Hopefully this is able to be repeated and generalised. And of course it should be much easier to get EFC3s from upgrade files but there is no sticky that I can see that explains how to do it simply, but on the other hand I have noticed at least one recent thread on this section of the forum where Capntrips is chiding someone requesting an EFC3 and suggesting they go to the code search forum, and at the same time manually giving them the answer from an upgrade file (“this section” is “jp1 general” where this thread has been moved from codes – btw, shouldn’t this be in codes or non-jp1 – is “code search” forum about EFC codes or something else altogether??).

If anyone is interested two of the useful (and one dangerous) EFCs I found, tested on (my at least) 8020B00, 108020B00 using setup code AMP/1289 and tested on Marantz SR5400 amp (should work for 5200 and 5300 at least).

Discrete on 27684
Discrete off 27668

The dangerous code that I found was a factory setup or reset and it was found not using the above process but while I was tinkering with EFC calculator , and entered the hex number 00 01. This gave EFC5 19140 (I presume there is some significance that the hex 00 01 is this setup/reset mode) . The code 19148 (from hex 00 09) also does the same thing.

The really dangerous thing about this code is that the corresponding function when pressed on the remote turns the amp to a “factory mode”. This switches the input (I think to DSS), and TURNS THE VOLUME UP TO MAX. If you have anything coming through the input , needless to say this could be disastrous to the amp or speakers (I was lucky as although I did have something coming through it was a piece of dialogue in a film rather than an explosion and I turned the vol down quickly – don’t think there is any damage as everything still sounds very good). I am not sure if this factory mode allows you to access any setup features as I didn’t try it, but the other thing it does (that I am aware of), is clear the memory next time you cycle power.

I have quite a few other codes, as I went through many OBCs, some of which were not even in the original CCF. I’m just sorry I do not know the best way/place to share these now.

[dave485093]

p.s. I realise it would be better to have jp1 if you wish to search for EFC5s (or functions) so you could load up all the OBCs onto the remote in order and try them - this has I think been mentioned as a strategy somewhere but not in simple form of course.

I also presume I could in theory translate my newly found EFCs into functions and make an upgrade without jp1?

[The Robman]

It's not that I don't want to update the advanced code lists or any other parts of the site, it's just that I don't have time. I can barely keep up with the JP1 side of things as it is.

And just FYI, from a programming point of view, the URC-6820, URC-8820 and URC-10820 are exactly the same remote, so if you can (or can't) do something with one of them, it will be the same story for the other 2. In fact, if you open up the URC-6820 you will find that there are 2 more device buttons on the PCB, so it uses the URC-8820's PCB.

[johnsfine]

Anyone writing a doc about how to search for EFC5s (at least of the “2 byte” variety) would better explain how to use KM or RM, as well as upgrade files and perhaps ccfs (with decode ccf) as aids.

I think we have decent doc on how to use KM or RM to build upgrades. Most of the same instructions apply if you want to use KM or RM just to compute EFC5 numbers.

I'm sure better doc (or more focused doc) would help. But we don't have time to do everything that would help.

continuing my Marantz example, I did in fact find the codes I wanted (and they do at least work on both my 8820B00 and 10820B00, so there is at least some intercompatibility in EFC5).

As Rob mentioned those two have identical libraries, so every setup code is a perfect match between them.

I didn't mean to give the impression that EFC5 numbers typically vary by model. They don't. They occasionally vary by model.

I did it by finding a ccf for a Marantz sr5300 (similar model number to my sr5400). I ran it through “decode ccf” then opened the resulting text file in a spreadsheet.

That's already following instructions much better than most people in these forums do.

I opened RM and selected 8820 in the “remote” pull down list. Back to the spreadsheet I looked for the functions I wanted and noticed the Protocol listed for them. Some were RC5 and some RC5x, so back in RM I chose RC5/5x Combo from the “protocol” pull down list.

Apparently you got that right. But that is a problem spot in using RM to search for EFC5 numbers. There are often several different protocol choices each of which can generate some or all of the desired signals. If you're building an upgrade you can pick any choice that covers enough of your signals that you're OK using keymoves for the rest. But if you're computing EFC5 numbers you need to select the choice that matches the setup code you will be using. As you found, usually the most plausible choice for the set of functions is the right choice. But sometimes not.

With RC5x, I do not understand why, I had to try selecting each one of the four RC5x devices in the RC5x device column,

The sequence of allowed RC5x devices (on RM's setup sheet) is built-into the setup code. It is not represented in the EFC5 number. If you build your own upgrade you can make whatever sequence you want and RM will know how to use it. If you're computing EFC5 numbers for a built-in setup code, what you put on the setup sheet is guess (or expert help) at matching what is in that setup code. If that doesn't match the setup code then you get the problem you had.

It made no difference whether I entered the correct RC5x device number in the boxes beside the RC5x devices in the setup tab, in any case what mattered was whether it was 1, 2, 3 or 4 in the RC5x list

Correct. The EFC5 number tells positionally which of the four is used by this function. What matters for the transmitted signal is the number in that position in the built-in setup code, not the number in that position in RM's setup sheet. Having those numbers right in RM's setup sheet just makes the operation of RM's functions sheet more understandable.

Johnsfine, you say I didn’t make my help request easy, and you (I mean all the experts on this site) also seem to make similar observations on a regular basis to others. You also suggested to me that I ask for EFC5 help. Yet in the end, even though I am by no means a jp1 expert, I was able to help myself using your tools.

You do give rather little of the relevent info (setup code numbers, URLs, model numbers, etc.) buried in a lot of text.



I'm glad you figured out the tools. Most people are scared away by those tools and won't really try them.

There are lots of exceptions (such as the way those four numbers are positional in that particular setup code). Our general documentation could be better. But it's too big a task to bring it to the level of covering all those exceptions. That's why asking for EFC5 help for a specific setup code can get you better help than asking for EFC5 help in general.

I have quite a few other codes, as I went through many OBCs, some of which were not even in the original CCF. I’m just sorry I do not know the best way/place to share these now.

I think an rmdu file is the best way to share those.

If we're still talking about that RC5x combo, then it would be best to put the correct info on RM's setup sheet, so the functions sheet would show correct device numbers, rather than just correct EFC5.

We're talking about Auidio/1289, right?
I think the "Fixed Data" for that is 0F 4F 00 4E.
If my rdf file and protocols.ini are correct, then that means:

RC5x Device 1 = 16 with Sub-Device>63 blank
RC5x Device 2 = 16 with Sub-Device>63 checked
RC5x Device 3 = 31 with Sub-Device>63 blank
RC5x Device 4 = 17 with Sub-Device>63 checked

[Mark Pierson]

My first comment is that the section on advanced codes should be updated in some way to reflect this, as it is now potentially misleading (of course, even the omission of the posibility of the leading 00 in that section is somewhat misleading).

Just my 2 cents here...

The current listings in the Advanced Code section are all based on 1-byte functions. Therefore, all of them should be useable with the "00"+EFC3 format on newer remotes IIRC. The 5-digit EFC's that start with other than "00" are for 2-byte functions, and I'm not sure anyone's actually seen an "official" listing of them from UEI/OFA yet.

I concur with John that KM and RM and their associated upgrade files are better than most of those advanced code lists. The problem is that it isn't always easy to find the right upgrade file for the official setup code (not necessarily the right Device Type/Setup Code combination, but rather the right protocol and device number settings) to get the non-standard EFC's others have found.

In a perfect world, our documentation would be a lot better and more complete. However, one needs to keep in mind that this is a home-grown hacker effort done by people who are addicted to these wonderful little remotes. The level of support available here has always impressed me and is the reason I chose to give back to the community and was thus labeled an "expert". I realize I'm a little biased, but the support here is the best I've personally experienced anywhere on the 'net.

[dave485093]

Mark, it wasn't my intention to suggest that the support wasn't good and I realise that this is a volunteer effort; it just seemed as an outsider that in this paricular instance a relatively easy to follow updated doc on how to find EFCs would be helpful to all concerned, particularly as it seemed the experts were spending "bits" of time here and there repeating and clarifying in order to find EFCs for people.

With the time it is a chicken and egg situation - if you could have a clear easy to follow doc it would save time in the long run, but it is getting round to making it in the first place.

And now I realise also that such a doc is likely to be impossible. As johnsfine said, so many exceptions and particularly with finding the right protocol and device number settings (which to the kind of user I am and to who I would aim such a document at are still essentially meaningless - although personally I am interested in delving deeper into jp1 and ir remotes here, in this instance of EFCs, I want to be able to find the EFCs without understanding anything about the tools I am using). Anyway, even though it probably wont' work, I hope (but it probably won't be soon) to try and write such a doc, the key point I suppose being how to not cover all the exceptions but instead to explain the element of trial and error that not covering them gives rise to (or when to ask an expert for an informed guess to get them started) - who knows, it may be just be possible to get something helpful that is a bit more focused on EFCs than RM and KM how tos.

I'll also try and make that rmdu (and hopefully be able to generalise that process).

By the way, just before finding the EFC codes for my Marantz amp (under audio 1289) myself I had sent an email to ofausa asking for them. Relatively soon after I had found all of the codes (about a week or two after sending the email I think) I got two emails. The first reply sent me back the setup code 1289 (which I had already put in my email!). However the rep quickly realised her mistake (without me replying) and had sent a second email with a doc attached and all of the 5 digit EFCs with all of the functions. The list was a mess with many repeated codes and functions, but all the functions were correct and the only missing funciton was the dangerous setup one that I found. I have contacted OFA in the past and had no reply (think it was Europe, don't know if this indicates a difference), but thought hte service in this case was very good (of course the reply could have been a bit sooner but then I wouldn't have had all the fun of finding the codes!). Still it again gets me wondering why OFA themselves don't have an EFC database on their website.

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