decoding the original remote control data

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StanleyB
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decoding the original remote control data

Post by StanleyB »

Hi there, just a big howdy 1st of all :D .
I would like to download the stored information (original manufacturer data), and study the code format etc of EACH code on my OFA handset. It happens to be a URC-7562, but that is not crucial to my question I think.
The reason I wish to do this, is so that I can list, in an excel sheet if possible, every bit of detail of each OFA code.
My question is:
1. Has anyone already done this, and if so, where can I find this information?
2. How can I go about doing it myself?
3. Has anyone tried to build a URC from scratch, using the OFA key codes data?

Thanks.

StanleyB
johnsfine
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Re: decoding the original remote control data

Post by johnsfine »

StanleyB wrote: 3. Has anyone tried to build a URC from scratch, using the OFA key codes data?
Have you ever heard of intellectual property laws?
StanleyB
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Post by StanleyB »

Yes I have, but My wife bakes bread once a week, even though she can buy it (cheaper) in the supermarket.
johnsfine
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Post by johnsfine »

I wasn't objecting to the idea of building a universal remote from scratch. I was objecting to the idea of extracting the database from an existing universal remote to use for that project. I understand (second hand, no direct knowledge) that UEI licenses that database to some other manufacturers of universal remotes, indicating that UEI and those licensees see that database as valuable intellectual property.

Baking bread is a stupid analogy for this, because the significant costs in bread are the direct work and the ingredients, not the recipe. If the license to use the recipe were a major part of the cost of bread AND your wife stole that recipe from the supermarket's bakery, then you'd have an analogy.
underquark
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Post by underquark »

JP1-method:
Buy another 7562 (or any compatible learning remote). Set remote A to code 000 (Magic-0-0-0). Set remote B to learning mode (Magic-9-7-5). Learn first 20 or so buttons. Read data in IR. Learn next 20 or so buttons. Set remote B to code 001...etc. up to 2037 (in practice it will only have a finite subset of codes for a given device but that's still a lot of codes.)

Non-JP1 method:
Go to the OneForAll web site, sign up and download WAV files. Then decode them in IR using its WAV import facility. Trouble is that the files are indexed by device manufacturer rather than by setup code so you don't know what you'll get until you download them.

I can't see this infringing any laws so long as you're using the data to enhance your use of the remote as all that you are doing is reading the codes that they have supplied to you with the product that you purchased. It would be a whole different ball game if you were to try to use those codes to make your own device or for any commercial purpose.
StanleyB wrote:Yes I have, but My wife bakes bread once a week, even though she can buy it (cheaper) in the supermarket.
Nope, I don't get that one either. Anyhow, why have stale bread for most of the week?
Capn Trips
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Post by Capn Trips »

Of course, Underquark's and John Fine's replies are correct, but I would add
(1) This spreadsheet list every known setup code that is preloaded in every known UEI remote (as much as an unpaid volunteer can keep this data updated), including protocol ID, devices and subdevices, and what remotes have it preloaded. It doesn't tell you much about the STRUCTURE of the signals per se, but gives you a list of setup codes you'd have to learn in your quest. From this spreadsheet, it looks like there are 496 KNOWN setup codes in your remote. There may be more, I suppose.
(2) Further, if you intend to embark on learning ALL of the UEI codes built into your remote, the setup codes also have an associated device type, so you would have to test TV/0000 through TV/2037, VCR/0000 through VCR/2037, etc for all of the device types in your remote. Have fun. :D
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Remotes: OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: LG 65" Smart LED TV; Samsung QN850BF Series - 8K UHD Neo QLED LCD TV
RCVR: Onkyo TX-SR875; Integra DTR 40.3
DVD/VCR: Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A3 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-D704.
Amazon Firestick
tape deck: Pioneer CT 1380WR (double cassette deck)
(But I still have to get up for my beer)
StanleyB
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Post by StanleyB »

Thanks for the information so far. I think that I at least have something to start from!

As far as intellectual property rights are concerned: OFA did not invent those codes they have in their handsets. They copied those codes from the original handsets form the OEM manufacturers. So universal remote controls are in themselves products that have in them information that allows the operation of an AV device remote control function, without using the original manufacturer's handset. That is in itself infringing the rights of the OEM manufacturer. So where does the poaching end and the gamekeeping begins?

StanleyB
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Post by johnsfine »

Let me suggest a different starting point for copying a database of IR codes: The library of CCF files at RemoteCentral. Use DecodeIr.dll and DecodeCCF.exe to extract data from CCF files into a format easy to import to Excel.

There are some problems with that library that would increase the effort needed to extract an IR database from it. But getting an IR database from there would at least be easier than what Underquark described (I don't know if he was joking, since the method he described scales up so badly when applied to a whole database). I think getting the database from RC would also put you on much better legal ground for various uses (but I'm not a lawyer).

If you want to design a new system for sending any large variety of IR protocols, I suggest using IRP notation (discussed in various threads here) to convey the protocol structure to the software.
StanleyB
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Post by StanleyB »

The Devices.xls and Devices-dev.xls files are of great interest to me. I am new to this forum, so I wish to first read up on what those files actually mean, and if they actually contain what I am looking for.
Can someone advise me if those files contain the key codes of each key on the remote controls for any given device code? i.e.: if I wished to look up the key code of the AV button on TV-0668 for example, would those files caugh up the information. If not, is there any other file that could have this information?

Out of interest: I am trying to write a database program using an ACCESS .mdb file to store the data. By selection various bits from a main screen, users can navigate the database.

StanleyB
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Post by The Robman »

No, those spreadsheets just list the protocol and fixed data used by each setup code.

Could you give us a bit more information about the application you're looking to write, such as who would use it, and what would happen once they have selected a code.
Rob
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Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
StanleyB
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Post by StanleyB »

The Robman wrote:No, those spreadsheets just list the protocol and fixed data used by each setup code.

Could you give us a bit more information about the application you're looking to write, such as who would use it, and what would happen once they have selected a code.
Many years ago I ran into a URC program that allowed you to control your TV etc. via the irda port of your laptop. Later on I came across LIRC, but always wished there was a proper Windows version, with drop down menus to select your brand of TV etc. I am basically trying to do something similar to the Clipsal home automation system, but far cheaper, and with diagrams etc for hardware that the average electronics guy can build. The Clipsal sytem is extremely expensive, but I like their use of xml files to store the code data. I have part of the clipsal system at home, but I am not happy with the way you have to go about adding the code to the system, in order to control your equipment remotely. The code reader (5100RP) set me back U$800! I work in a place where all sorts of AV equipment pas sthrough for testing, repair etc. But we don't have access to every handset going, so we use OFA handsets a lot to operate things in the workshop. We have few PCB's modified and soldered onto a test rig that outputs various commands automatically to run through each TV etc function to see that they work fine. A PC program output via the irda port would be sooooo much quicker and accurate.
Capn Trips
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Post by Capn Trips »

underquark wrote:... tabs (the thingies at the bottom labelled SAT, TV etc.) ...
Hey! :evil: What's the big idea! :eek: I originated the use of the word "thingies" in this context. :twisted: Your unauthorized usage of this term infringes on my intellectual property rights! :P
Beginners - Read this thread first
READ BEFORE POSTING or your post will be DELETED!


Remotes: OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: LG 65" Smart LED TV; Samsung QN850BF Series - 8K UHD Neo QLED LCD TV
RCVR: Onkyo TX-SR875; Integra DTR 40.3
DVD/VCR: Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A3 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-D704.
Amazon Firestick
tape deck: Pioneer CT 1380WR (double cassette deck)
(But I still have to get up for my beer)
johnsfine
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Post by johnsfine »

StanleyB wrote: I like their use of xml files to store the code data. I have part of the clipsal system at home, but I am not happy with the way you have to go about adding the code to the system, in order to control your equipment remotely. The code reader (5100RP) set me back U$800!
What does a code reader do? Learn signals from the original remote?

Take a look at CaputerIr if you want a good inexpensive way for a PC to learn signals from an original remote.
If their xml files are reasonable, that should mean you can edit new code sets into those files, without using whatever hardware/software they sell for doing that.
StanleyB wrote:I work in a place where all sorts of AV equipment pas sthrough for testing, repair etc. But we don't have access to every handset going,
You repair and/or test AV equipment without the associated remote?
StanleyB wrote: A PC program output via the irda port would be sooooo much quicker and accurate.
Do you know the raw hardware access details for doing that? (If you had the series of On and Off times, do you know how to make an irda port in Windows transmit that?)

Many years ago I did a little with programming irda chips to send and receive remote control codes. I found it needed chip specific information that the chip makers didn't want to give out. I also was unable to get that kind of access to the chip through the interference of the Windows OS. I assume a lot has changed in those many years. But I still haven't seen any clear description of how one might send remote control signals through an irda chip in Windows.

Unless you think all those aspects are easy, you might want to get some of that nailed down using a much smaller collection of device data before you focus on gathering the device data.

You seem to be overly focused on storing the device data. That seems to me to be a trivial detail as compared to gathering it and using it.

It sounds like your system needs to:

1) Start with a brand and model and generate a good guess at the code set. That would require a big hard to gather database to do right. The manual that comes with an OFA remote is a pretty rotten version of THAT database. Maybe you don't intend to do better.

2) Given a code set, look up the protocol, device number(s), subdevice number(s) and command numbers. That's the database inside an OFA remote that you want to copy. Depending on how well you want to test or control AV devices, the OFA database (even if copied) would be a serious problem because advanced functions are left out and other functions are questionably arranged to fit the labels of an OFA remote.
For fairly recent, fairly high end AV equipment, the code sets covered by CCF files at RC has much more than are in an OFA remote. OFA has much better coverage of cheap and/or obsolete AV devices. But why would you be repairing such?

3) Given protocol, device, subdevice and command, convert that to a time series of On and Off. That is the step where I suggested using IRP notation to describe the signals and software similar to MakeHex (free C++ source code available).

4) Given an On/Off time series, make the irda port send that. I have no clue. Hopefully you do.

5) Wrap it all in a UI.

That quite a bit and I don't think (2) is where you should be starting.
underquark
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Post by underquark »

Capn Trips wrote:I originated the use of the word "thingies" in this context. :twisted: Your unauthorized usage of this term infringes on my intellectual property rights! :P
Hey, no need to get your dohickies in a twist. And I'll thank you to keep your widget away from that whatjamacallit :eek: .
StanleyB
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Post by StanleyB »

One parameter that I can't find in those lists is the IR frequency of each code. If somebody knows if a table exists of those frequencies for the OFA codes, please let me know. I am in the mean time going to measure that frequency for the codes I can find on my URC-7562, and post them afterwards if anyone else is into that sort of thing.

(P.S. my claim to fame are many. But I also designed the layout etc of the 1st sub GBP100 touch screen URC, and the 4th mp3 player ever built. I am however still poor :cry: )
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