JP1 Remotes

Okay, I'm going to learn how to use an extender. I've got 8811's that I'll be programming. I assume the have a 2k memory since I haven't done any modifications.

I located the extenders, but there are so many of them I haven't got a clue which one to download.

I am kind of intimidated by the extender thing. But then keymaster and IR used to frighten me too back when I got my last piece of equipment several years ago.

I think I need the extender because I've got an excessive number of keymoves on my cinema 7's and so I'm going to the 8811's because they have more keys.

I also am interested in exploring device dependent macros.

I'm not interested in fast macros though because my TV doesn't like it when if I press the OFA keys too fast.

So is there a specific file I should be downloading for the 8811? And is there an extender tutorial that I missed?

I keep reading about M, V, T, and P device indexes? What does that mean?

Because this family of remotes is so widespread, a lot of guys have done a lot of hacking, so there are a number of variations and different extenders. Obviously you don't want any of the weird EEPROM size extenders, so ignore the 1K, 8K, or BigEEPROM type extender names. That still leaves you with three basic choices:

1.2; 2.4; or 3.3.

In general, I normally default to the "newest" one (in this case 3.3), but you may want to look at the features.

From their ReadMe files (differences highlighted):

1.2 BASIC FEATURES:
===============

You can put a Macro or KeyMove on any key.
You have room for lots more KeyMoves and Macros.
Macros can be Nested.
Macros are fast.
Very flexible device selection.
Included protocols for Pause, Selective Macro, and ToadTog

No Learned signal support.
No Fav/Scan support.
No internal (to the remote) Sleep timer.
No direct keying of EFC codes on the remote.
No long-press-setup functions

2.4 BASIC FEATURES:
===============

You can put a Macro or KeyMove on any key.
You have room for lots more KeyMoves and Macros.
Macros can be Nested.
Macros are fast.
Very flexible device selection.
Improved (very different) Fav list processing.
Included protocols for Pause, Selective Macro, and ToadTog

No Learned signal support.
No Scan support.
No internal (to the remote) Sleep timer.
No direct keying of EFC codes on the remote.
No long-press-setup functions

3.3 BASIC FEATURES:
===============

NOTE: Fixed intermittent problem with some 88xx models

You can put a Macro or KeyMove on any key.
You have room for lots more KeyMoves and Macros.
Macros can be Nested.
Macros are fast.
Very flexible device selection.
Improved (very different) Fav list processing.
Included protocols for Pause, Selective Macro, and ToadTog.
Optional second shift key.
Configurable backlight timer.

No Learned signal support.
No Scan support.
No internal (to the remote) Sleep timer.
No direct keying of EFC codes on the remote.
No long-press-setup functions

So pick the feature set you prefer, and go with it.

You will get Fast Macros no matter what, since that is one of the key benefits almost everyone wants from an extender. If they are too fast, then you will have to use tricks to extend the interval between successive signals, which may include the Pause protocol.

As for readings, have you looked at the extender help doc file in the 8811 extender folder in the file section?

vickyg2003 wrote:I keep reading about M, V, T, and P device indexes? What does that mean?

M, V, T, and P are KEY SETS, not DEVICE INDICES. The buttons are grouped so that you can assign GROUPS of buttons to various devices rather than have ALL of the buttons locked to a SINGLE device as you must do in the unextended remote (with the exception of being able to have Volume Punch Through) From the Help doc referenced in my post above:

KEY SETS:

T = Fwd, Pause, Play, Record, Rew, Stop, F_Fwd, F_Rew
V = Vol+, Vol-, Mute
C = digits, Ch+, CH-, Info, Enter, Prev, TV/VCR, Sleep, Fav
M = Down, Exit, Guide, Left, Menu, Right, Select, Up
P = Pip, Move, Swap
O = Power, M1-4, L1-4, Setup, Light, Home-Th, device keys, phantoms

and

DEVICE SELECTION:

 There is no normal device selection. There is no VPT ("Volume Punch-Trough"). There is no Transport Punch-Through (TPT). There is no Home Theater Mode.

 Instead there is a device selection mechanism by key set that has a superset of the power of all the above; But you must define macros to use and customize it.

 The device keys and HT key have no built in meaning. You must define macros to have any device selection at all.

 There are 57 commands that can be used in macros to control device selection. Each command specifies the key set and the Device Index that will be used for keys in that set. For example P_TV says the TV device will be used for keys in the "Pip" set.

 There are 7 Key sets: Pip, Menu, Channel, Volume, Transport, Other and Temporary(X). There are 8 Device Indexes: TV, CBL, VCR, DVD, AUX, SAT, CD and RCVR. There is one additional command X_Cancel.

..so a Device Index corresponds (roughly) to the Device Buttons one "selects" in the remote. But with the extender they are not locked to one another in any way. Bascially, disconnect in your mind the Device Buttons from the Device Indexes. They just happen to have the same names, and the actual name is immaterial.

You assign a Setup Code (or Device Upgrade) to a Device INDEX (on the General Tab in IR)internal to the EEPROM) rather than to a Device BUTTON (as you do in the unextended remote). You similarly assign KeyMoves, Special Functions, and the ilk to buttons associated with that Device INDEX (and NOT to a Device BUTTON, again).

Then as a separate action, you must assign WHICH Keysets you want to access WHICH Device - normally via macros on the Device Buttons, but the Device Buttons are not limited in this way - they can be used for anything.

Thank you,

Yes I have read the documentation, its just over my head. I started out by reading the documentation for the 7800 extenders. I got so overwhelmed that I went out and bought 5 8811's in the hopes of avoiding the extenders all together. I thought if I could get enough keys assigned with new keymaster devices that I wouldn't reach the memory limit with my macros and keymoves, but I'm still having problems so I'm being forced to use the extender.

capn trips wrote:

There is no Transport Punch-Through (TPT).

This is my problem with the documentation, I don't know what TPT is. Does that mean that my T buttons ( Fwd, Pause, Play, Record, Rew, Stop, F_Fwd, F_Rew ) won't stick to the last device that I was in that assigned them?

If so, how can you mimic tht TPT behavior? I have 3 different devices (VCR, DVD Player, and DVD Recorder) that use these keys,

Or am I completely lost again?

I feel like I'm reading a foreing language with all the acronyms. Although I've finally figured out the HT is home theater.

Is there a vocabulary sheet with these terms somewhere? When I was last here a few years ago I printed off all the documentation and put it in a notebook. I know I don't have a definition page anywhere and I'd really hate to wade through ALL the documentation again, to get up to speed on the extenders, when I am already okay with keymaster and kind of muddling through with IR. I suppose I need to know more about IR with the extender.

vickyg2003 wrote: This is my problem with the documentation, I don't know what TPT is. Does that mean that my T buttons ( Fwd, Pause, Play, Record, Rew, Stop, F_Fwd, F_Rew ) won't stick to the last device that I was in that assigned them?

"TPT" is any mechanism for making the transport buttons stick to some device when you select another device.

IIRC, the 7800 has a crude version of TPT built-in and the 8811 does not.

Most extenders give you complete control of that sort of thing based on how you code the device select macros. So TPT with the 8811 can work howver you want it to work.

vickyg2003 wrote: If so, how can you mimic tht TPT behavior? I have 3 different devices (VCR, DVD Player, and DVD Recorder) that use these keys,

When setting up the extender you create a device select macro for each device. The device select macro for each of those three devices should assign the T_ set. The device select macros for your other devices should not. Then the Transport buttons will stick to whichever of those three devices you selected most recently.

vickyg2003 wrote:

There is no Transport Punch-Through (TPT).

This is my problem with the documentation, I don't know what TPT is. Does that mean that my T buttons ( Fwd, Pause, Play, Record, Rew, Stop, F_Fwd, F_Rew ) won't stick to the last device that I was in that assigned them?

John explains it above. Perhaps I might help illuminate:

"Punch-Through" refers to the capability of leaving a set of buttons (like the V (Volume) or T (Transport) buttons NOT ALWAYS be governed by the currently active Device Mode.

Many remotes offer VPT, to allow the V buttons to always operate your TV speakers (or RECEIVER speakers), even when the remote is in DVD, or CABLE or some other device mode.

Some remotes also offer TPT, to allow you to always have the T buttons operate, say, your VCR, even if you are in CABLE or SAT mode.

The extender does not have "Device Modes" in the traditional sense, hence the concept of "Punch-Through" does not exist. As John pointed out, with the extender, you don't NEED VPT or TPT, because you have complete control over which Keysets you assign to which Device. Let me give you an example:

(1) In TV mode, you want to use your TV tuner and speakers BUT you want to be able to record a TV show on your VCR without switching the remote to VCR mode, pressing RECORD, then switching back to TV mode. So you want your Transport keys set up to operate your VCR.

You create a Device Selection macro on the TV button that executes O_TV, P_TV, V_TV, C_TV, M_TV, T_VCR. This sets up the remote to assign all keys to the TV Device except for the T keys which are assigned to the VCR.

(2) In SAT mode, you want to use you TV as a monitor only, feed the sound through your RECEIVER, and use the SAT device's built-in PVR instead of the VCR for recording.

You create a different macro on the SAT button that executes O_SAT, P_TV, V_RCVR, C_SAT, M_SAT, T_SAT. This sets up the remote to assign all keys to the SAT device except for the V keys, which are assigned to the receiver, and the P (PIP) keys, which you want to keep assigned to the TV.

In this manner, you have ABSOLUTE CONTROL over which Keyset is assigned to which device, as opposed to the unextended remote, in which you assign ALL of the keys to the active device (with the possible limited exceptions of VPT or TPT as described above)

You may notice that this "Device Selection" is really nothing other than a macro and as you get more comfortable with what you can do, you will see that you are not required to use the Device Buttons only for Device Selection.

For example, MANY (I won't say MOST, but I suspect this to be the case) use device buttons as "System Setup" macros, in which, for example, the SAT macro above would, sequentially:

POWER ON the TV, Select the SAT input on the TV, (Mute the TV speakers if you wish), Power ON the RECEIVER, Select the SAT input on the Receiver, Power on the SATELLITE BOX, Assign all of the Keysets as above. VOILA!

1 Button press, and your system is set up to watch your SAT box and your remote is ready to control those functions you require on each of the powered-up devices.

If the complexity is still daunting, try going in order through the readme as you set up your extender IR file, and ask specific questions along the way.

Okay I see how I complicated things by looking at BOTH the 7800 and the 8811 documentation.

I think I've got the RDF definitions installed, I see new definitions when I go to the File -New - Select option, and is it my imagination or do I have a new File option called Merge Using ExtInstall.

I can easily find the 7800 extender, however the 8811 extender is a little bit more difficult to understand.

I've got some definitions but I really don't understand the naming convention. I can't find anything that resembles

.

1.2; 2.4; or 3.3.

I think I did something really wrong with the 6012 installs for the 8811 and I'm confused about that. I got errors about OLD.TXT NEW.TXT when trying to run the Install2k2 which I think I'm supposed to be doing.

And I don't understand the Merge Using ExtInstall.

I really am over my head, but the Cinema7 extender at least seems to look okay and there are some new keys in the Macros area.

Any hints on where to find the 3.3 8811 version would be appreciated.

8811 is not known to me. Here's my 7800extended macros on device keys. The first one is unchanged from what the extender gives you. the rest are customised. Hope a real example helps to illustrate what John and Capn are saying.
In macros 2-5 volume always goes through the receiver (RCV device).
In macros 6 and 7 volume goes through another receiver, on AUX device.
Transport keys just move along with the device, and M group is, I think the same idea as Other in other extenders.

Don't use Extinstall in 7800. Just open the .txt file, bring in the upgrades.

For 8811 I think you can forget the old.txt, new.txt routine. Merge via extinstall is built in IR.
In IR set path (file menu) to where Extinstall.exe is. Best if it's in the same directory as IR. Set path to RDF directory as well.
Open your standard 8811 file, or download from the remote. Now merge what's in IR with the 8811 ext hex file. I think that's how it's done. If not, search the forum, there are just few refs to it.

vickyg2003 wrote:Any hints on where to find the 3.3 8811 version would be appreciated.

Hal's version 3.3 is here
https://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload ... le_id=1763

Capn Trips wrote:For example, MANY (I won't say MOST, but I suspect this to be the case) use device buttons as "System Setup" macros, in which, for example, the SAT macro above would, sequentially:

POWER ON the TV, Select the SAT input on the TV, (Mute the TV speakers if you wish), Power ON the RECEIVER, Select the SAT input on the Receiver, Power on the SATELLITE BOX, Assign all of the Keysets as above. VOILA!

I concur. Except just in the 7800 it's a bit rough to build, so for a quick and dirty setup, the simplest thing is to use device buttons for selection of key groups, and shift-device buttons for synchronizing inputs and general viewing/listening mode setup. The reason is that 7800 does not have builtins such as Long key press, so it has to be made on the keymoves sheet. Also no nested macros.

OK Vicky, to try to help you, I will try to consolidate in one place the answers to your major questions:

(1) Location of extenders:
They are all HERE (as I believe you have already found)

(2) Identification of extenders:

• 6011b_8k_1e0a.zip - version 1.0 for 8K EEPROM (unusual individual mod)
  
  6012ex1K3_2.zip - version 3.2 for 1K EEPROM (usually from UEI upgraded 6012)
  
  6012ex1_2.zip - version 1.2 for 2K (normal) EEPROM
  
  6012ex2_4.zip - version 2.4 for 2K EEPROM
  
  6012ex2_test.zip - test version 2 for 8K EEPROM
  
  6012ex3_3.zip - version 3.3 for 2K EEPROM (probably the one you want)
  
  6012ExtCC.zip - Special program to help calculate hex codes for special protocols associated with the extender. Sort of unnecessary with current versions of RM and IR.
  
  6012_Extender_DOC_v1.1.zip - ReadMe for the Extender
  
  big6012eeprom.zip - special extender for EEPROMs greater than 8K

(3) Although the extender zip file has RDFs, these are likely old, and you should use the MOST CURRENT RDFs from Nils' distribution zip file.

(4) The program used to install the extender into your existing unextended file is EXTINSTALL.EXE. You must have this unzipped on your computer. You need not "RUN" this program, however, as current versions of IR will automatically convert your unextended IR file into an extended one by calling this program.

(5) In IR, go to File>Set Directory and ensure you have IR looking for Extinstall.exe in the right place and the RDFs as well.

(6) Open your current IR file (should be unextended). Go to File>Merge using Extinstall. Point to the correct hex file in the unzipped extender file (6012-2K-3.hex). Give your new file a name and you're done.

(7) NOW you start building all of your Special Protocol keymoves and Macros, etc.

You will notice that the newly-created IR file will already have predefined macros on the Device Keys. These are provided as a courtesy, and are simply Device Selection macros, so your extended Device Keys would do exactly the same thing as in the unextended remote. Most people delete these and build their own, or as a minimum modify them heavily, as I explained in an earlier post. I point this out, because some people, upon converting to an extender, believe that these macros are somehow MANDATORY and they most certainly are NOT.

Okay thank you Cptn, I followed the sticky at the top of the page that sent me to the old yahoo groups and then I went to the files/extenders info, so that is why I got different information and couldn't find the version 3.3. Now I see that I was getting them from the wrong files section.

Maybe I need to look for information there.

Now I've got a few questions on V_TV for example

I see that my 8811 has these modes
T = Fwd, Pause, Play, Record, Rew, Stop, F_Fwd, F_Rew
V = Vol+, Vol-, Mute
C = digits, Ch+, CH-, Info, Enter, Prev, TV/VCR, Sleep, Fav
M = Down, Exit, Guide, Left, Menu, Right, Select, Up
P = Pip, Move, Swap
O = Power, M1-4, L1-4, Setup, Light, Home-Th, device keys, phantoms

and my 7800 has TVPM modes

Now where do the SHIFT Vol+, SHIFT vol- and SHIFT mute functions fit in.

And what about Key moves on these key.

Here is an example

On my 7800 I use the built in code 0060 for my TV and it does not assign the PIP keys so I put them in with KeyMoves, I then clone these keymoves to the Satelite. Will P_TV in the satelite do the same thing?

Which group would the shifted PIP be on in the 8811? (P or M), my guess is the M.

Which group would the shifted PIP be on the 8811? (P or O) my guess would be on the O.

Which extender are you asking about? I can't remember what features I put in each extender, but I think I put the info in the readme file.

I think shifted keys SHOULD always be in the group with the unshifted key. Every extender I wrote that I actually used myself works that way. But that is harder to do when coding the extender. I don't recall whether I did that every time.

In the readme for 6012ex3 I found this statement:

Shifted keys all go into the key set containing their unshifted counterpart. For example SHIFT-Stop is in the T set.

Hopefully there is some similar statement in the readme of whichever extender you are using.

vickyg2003 wrote: And what about Key moves on these key.

What are you asking about Key moves on these keys?

So far as I recall, any extender that has key sets at all treats KeyMoves as overriding the base setup code strictly underneath the set selection system. That differs in two ways from the way most non extended remotes treat KeyMoves relative to VPT or TPT.

A) A KeyMove in the current mode overrides VPT for non extender. There is no "current mode" with the extender, so there is no place for that type of override KeyMove to be.

B) A KeyMove within the mode of the VPT is ignored by most VPT (non extender). So you get the V functions of the base setup code. The extender doesn't do it that way. If the V_ mode contains KeyMoves they override the base setup code.

It is a clean two layer process:
1) Select the mode for a key based on its set or (in extenders that have it) the temporary device mode selection for all sets.
2) Select the function in that mode, taking any KeyMove before any function in the base setup code.