H900 Marcos/Newbie's 1st Extender with RCA & Atlas

Post by **vickyg2003** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:30 pm

sti491 wrote:Thanks for giving this some thought.

So, when I think "bits", I think of zeros and ones.

Yep bits or flags, there are 8 bits that you can test and set.
This gets quite difficult because the communication is only one way. Menu navigation can be quite tricky since the communication is only going in one direction. The key to this is getting the device into a known state.

Since I've been haunting these forums I started buying equipment based on the type of signal being sent, and the availablility of discretes that let you bypass the whole menu navigation.

When there is not a discrete nor a way to get the device into a known state, I usually opt for a LKP with recursion. Hold the button down and let it keep looping and then release and let the macro continue.

tranx · Post by **tranx** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 3:43 pm

I agree about the known state and that this is a fairly frequent problem with such menus, but the second menu always starts at the top, so can be left out of the discussion for now. That leaves the situation where there are eight possible positions for starting the first menu.

One way of (Edited13.1.2015: not "getting to"; instead: "avoiding having to maintain") the known state could be by repeating commands, just as vicky2003 has recommended. However in some circumstances it might be automated relatively simply, so may I ask whether the first menu cycles, or does the cursor get stuck when it gets to the bottom when repeatedly pressing 'down', and if it sticks at the top when repeatedly pressing 'up'?

tranx · Post by **tranx** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 5:04 pm

If the first menu does cycle, and if there are enough spare devices for your purposes, then a device could be used to go to a particular 'blank screen state' from specific devices for 'states', where the menu cursor starting positions would need to be known. The 'go to BS' *button would carry a DSM for the appropriate menu navigation commands, and in each blank screen device the 'return from BS' *button should carry a DSM to reverse those same actions in the first menu, i.e. to return the menu cursor to it's particular 'known position', and only to return to the original device state, no other changes of menu or device being made available.

*button could be the same one for 'go to BS' and 'return from BS' so it would in effect seem to be just 'toggle BS'

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 7:41 pm

Thanks Vickyg2003: “I usually opt for a LKP with recursion. Hold the button down and let it keep looping and then release and let the macro continue."

I may not need it based on a solution that I think I have for the macro I asked about, to blank the TV screen documented below, but I have a different macro I want to get to Charter Cable's "My Favorite Menu Guide".

On that one I start with CBL/Menu, then there are eight choices that you can cycle right (or left) and it keeps going forever in a loop, until you stop at the "Heart icon", which then needs to be selected to get to the menu I want. That "Heart icon" menu item is the fourth from the left, if that matters. The perfect macro might be "IF: it lands on that Heart fourth from the left, select it. "IF; it doesn't land there, keep looping and until I release to let the macro continue"...

So how would I do that? Have I given you enough info that you could script that macro for me to cut & paste into RM? Even if what I described can't be done, could you script what you suggested to "Hold the button down and let it keep looping and then release and let the macro continue"

Tranx,

“I agree about the known state and that this is a fairly frequent problem with such menus, but the second menu always starts at the top, so can be left out of the discussion for now." … that is correct.

Your question is a good one: “may I ask whether the first menu cycles, or does the cursor get stuck when it gets to the bottom when repeatedly pressing 'down', and if it sticks at the top when repeatedly pressing 'up'?" Yes, that is what it does! So:

Hit “down” 8 times from the top and it is stuck there at the bottom (you can keep hitting “down” and it just stays there). If you hit “Up” 8 times it does the same thing… it just stays at the top spot until you hit “down” again.

I think, if I am following your last post. A marcro that does this might work: Start by a TV/Menu press, then down 8 times. Then up 6 times (to highlight “Timers”), then select, then down 3 times, select to Blank screen.

Therefore it would look like this in RM:
Dev_TV;Menu;Down;Down;Down;Down;Down;Down; Down;Down;Up:Up:Up:Up:Up:Up:Ok;Down;Down;Down;Ok

I just tried this manually pushing the buttons on the remote from various starting positions in the first menu list. It works! With the extender "fast macro" feature, is there any reason I can't IR learn this macro to from my RCA to my H900 for a single button sequence macro? I hope it's not too long for the H900 to learn by IR (?)... that has been my objective all along.

Will this macro written as I have it work? Seems like we just figured out my answer for the "blank screen" macro! ☺ ...and maybe Vickyg2003's "LKP with recursion" will work for my Charter favorite channel guide one (that I still need help with).

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Sun Jan 11, 2015 9:57 pm

I hate to say it, but the most a 900 can learn that many commands in one raw learn. And your TV or cable box probably won't be able to process them that fast. Need to start thinking about a simpler approach.

tranx · Post by **tranx** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:52 am

If the slow speed in menus is acceptable, for the Charter Cable's "My Favorite Menu Guide" problem, even if a menu does cycle and using the principle described by vicky2003, the cursor's starting position can be retained by reversing any navigations in the menu after the cursor position has been changed. To reverse any change the alternative DSM could be issued by pressing the B-Menu select button once more, or possibly by pressing again whatever button was used to make the change.

In the example below by first pressing a 'B-Menu select button' on the remote, to set the numeric button set to a particular device state the user could then have 8 'discrete menu select buttons' available. After changing a menu position by pressing a number button, the only way of getting out of that 'B-menu select' mode should either be to press the same button again (to issue the reversing DSM), or (safer) to press the B-Menu select button (which would have the same DSM on it to return the menu to the known state), so that all the paddling might even be transparent to the user

On each of the number buttons in the 'B-menu select button' set, a unique DSM could be used to activate any particular menu item (corresponding to a change of the 'currently remembered position in the menu'). Each of those DSMs would be matched to a unique 'return to the original remembered cursor position in the menu' DSM (reversing the original steps). For safety once the menu had been changed, it might be best to to allocate the appropriate reversing DSM to the chosen 'B-menu select' button, but the same button on the remote could be used for allocation of both members of each matched pair of DSMs, for example as below, and i.e. to toggle in and out of the remembered menu cursor position.

For an eight place menu, eight DSM's, or pairs of DSMs, would be needed. To organise them they could be situated on buttons #1 to #8 in one device's number button set, for changing the menu, and perhaps another device's set or the 'B-menu select button' for the corresponding reverse operations. Most of the commands in the DSM on each digit button would navigate the menu but the macros in either direction (change menu position/reverse change) would finish by adjusting the remote automatically to use the alternate (menu changing/reversing) button set.

In order to preserve a 'known state' the problem cycling menu would need only to be addressed by using that method and in any case after using the menu, those 'reversing' DSMs would need to be used somehow before doing anything else, but two sets of phantom buttons could carry the paired macros instead of sets of number buttons.

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:09 am

mdavej,

Not sure exactly what you mean by this (I get the general meaning of what you are saying, which was my concern unfortunately): I hate to say it, but the most a 900 can learn that many commands in one raw learn. Is there a specific maximum number of button push sequences that I will be able to program in the RCA, to then IR learn to the H900?

For example my CBL "Fav Channel Guide" macro in it's simplest form (if the first menu selection is already on the fourth Heart icon button from the left, where I normally leave it), is only 3 button pushes "Dev_CBL;Menu;Ok;Ok". Could the H900 IR learn that short one, even if some delay had to be added between the command for the CBL DVR box to accept them?

Assuming that short a marco would IR transfer successfully to the H900 as an Extended RCA fast macro, but then it was too fast to work on the cable box, what is the easiest way add delays between the commands in RM?

Tranx,

I am struggling to understand the approach you are describing, because I don't know what you mean by, "by first pressing a 'B-Menu select button' on the remote"... and "On each of the number buttons in the 'B-menu select button' set".

I don't think you mean the "B, or blue button on the remote"? I'll do some searching to see If I can figure out the semantics/terminology you mean by, "'B-menu select button' set"... In the meantime if you read this, perhaps before I figure it out, you could explain further.

I think I conceptually understand what you mean by, "the user could then have 8 'discrete menu select buttons' available."... that is that is, assign the number 1 to the first icon all the way on the left for "Home", a 2 for the next "DVR", 3 for "On Demand", etc. Then instead of commands to navigate right or left, use a command that pushed the command by number. Conceptually I get it, but how do you do that?

Thanks in advance.

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:21 am

Those 3 commands should work. The 20 or so you posted will not. Pauses are just another step, very easy to add.

On the 900 you have to fool it into thinking your long macro is a single command. Raw mode does this but is limited to a second or two.

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 7:40 am

Is there another way do it other than "Raw mode"?

I not sure exactly what "raw mode" is, vs "some other mode"?

tranx · Post by **tranx** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 9:38 am

sti491 wrote:......Tranx, I am struggling to understand the approach you are describing, because I don't know what you mean by, "by first pressing a 'B-Menu select button' on the remote"

I refer not to 900, but to using the RCA extender, where you use the macros to set up combinations of device sets to mix them and use their different functions as defined in the devices where those functions are allocated. As mdavej has described more concisely: "...There aren't really device modes anymore, only key group mappings. There are also device specific and global macros..."

The suggestions were constructed on the hoof and adjusted as the account was written, so it may not hang together too well (and, come to think of it, the principles might just as well be used in an unextended JP1 setup, but was not thinking about that because you have been looking at using the extender).
"...a B-Menu select button' on the remote" was intended to indicate that you would choose a button which you would like to use for acheiving a button mapping for performing operations which might be covered by the description 'B-Menu selection' e.g. a place to put the macro for attending to whatever menu commands are required for getting to the menu which includes the Charter Cable's option "My Favorite Menu Guide".

... and "On each of the number buttons in the 'B-menu select button' set".

The key group mapping determined by the macro on the chosen 'B-Menu select button', would also set up the number buttons for handling the eight different menu selection possibilities in the cycling menu, together with that menu being displayed on the screen, by means of other macros applied to buttons 1-8 of the specified digit-button set.

I think I conceptually understand what you mean by, "the user could then have 8 'discrete menu select buttons' available."... that is , assign the number 1 to the first icon all the way on the left for "Home", a 2 for the next "DVR", 3 for "On Demand", etc. Then instead of commands to navigate right or left, use a command that pushed the command by number. Conceptually I get it...

Yes I think so.

...but how do you do that?

e.g. The macro on the button #1 might contain: OK; (if that were to be the known cursor position, no 'move cursor right' commands being needed); together with the key group mapping to include the appropriate 'return macro' on the 'B-Menu select button'. The 'B-Menu select button', would thus become instead the 'Return from B-Menu selection' button. Pressing it would issue the commands appropriate to returning the cursor to the known position, and to the same button mapping and menu display on screen, which were first achieved by pressing the same button i.e. if you chose to use a single button to 'return' then it would be a toggle, and could be termed the "B-Menu select button/Return from B-Menu selection" button!

Since all this is just hypothetical, it would be interesting to know if it can work, or to discover why not

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 11:20 am

That's clears a lot up. Thanks! Should getting my cable from China within a week or so. I'll play around some then. Meanwhile, it's an interesting cognitive challenge. Appreciate you hanging in there with me.

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Mon Jan 12, 2015 6:52 pm

sti491 wrote:Is there another way do it other than "Raw mode"?

I not sure exactly what "raw mode" is, vs "some other mode"?

You've got some more homework to do then. I haven't programmed a Harmony in years, so I'm sketchy on the details. But a normal learn will capture only the first command of whatever macro you attempt to learn, so that's useless. You have to do a "raw" learn. I think on the learning page, you click custom at the bottom to show the raw buttons. Raw mode is the key to this whole enterprise.

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:20 am

Thanks mdavej. I found raw learn in the Harmony 900 software under "custom" learn. That looks easy. I assume you just point the remotes at each other and IR learn like you would otherwise, except for doing it under "raw learn".

Earlier you said a 3 step macro would work, but the much longer one I proposed wouldn't. About how many sequences do you think I can raw learn to the H900?

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:45 am

Correct on all counts. Easy, but some trial and error getting a successful learn of a good duration that includes all commands. Plan on doing it several times.

3 to 5 is about the best you can do learning macros from another remote. However, with your JP1 remote and fast macros, you can probably get up to 15 steps. The big caveat is whether your TV can actually see 15 commands in 2 seconds. I've only ever had two devices that could, both were satellite receivers. You'll just have to try it and see. So build your macros and see if they work from the JP1 remote before you try to teach them to your 900.

sti491 · Post by **sti491** » Tue Jan 13, 2015 1:45 pm

Got it.

Next step, get that Chinese cable delivered to try some of my newfound knowledge.... which will likely generate more questions then!