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moving device upgrades from one JP1 remote to the other
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fichmana2003



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 49

PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:29 pm    Post subject: moving device upgrades from one JP1 remote to the other Reply with quote

Just got my 8811 and went exploring. I decided to get my cable box (Thomson) in first so got the remote and was shocked to see the UEI symbol on the back (never noticed it before). opened the batt lock and there is the JP1 connector!
So I decided to look inside this remote first. IR.EXE identified it as a FORCE remote and under the Devices tab was the complete cable box data as an upgrade. So, I copied it to RM one by one, assigned the keys and tried it... The buttons work (mostly), but are all scrambled up - '1' is 4, '0' is power etc.
looked at the data and saw that "Fixed Data" is 34 on my FORCE remote (the original) and 30 on my upgrade, with no posibility to change it.
what did I do wrong?

thanks!
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ddsmith60



Joined: 20 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is an easy way to go backwards so to speak. What I would do if I was you would be to learn a command or two to the 8811. Then plug it in to IR.EXE and see what it shows under learned signal tab. This should give you the information needed for the upgrade code protocol. You may be able to utilize the efc's you already have when you determine the protocol required to be entered in RM. I hope that is correct. I'm use to using KM not RM but I'm sure Robman or one of the many other experts will be along sometime soon to help.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I never heard of a FORCE remote, but if IR.EXE identified it, you must have an RDF for it.

If you copied button definitions accuratly but the results were scrambled, maybe that RDF doesn't have correct details for that remote. Digits are especially hard to get correct enough in an RDF that IR can correctly display an upgrade.

However, another possibility is that the FORCE uses the other version of pid 004B than the one the 8811 uses. In that case the EFC numbers are wrong. It is then just an accident when one key's wrong EFC happens to be another key's right EFC (vs. an RDF error in which every key's wrong EFC is necessarily another key's right EFC because the EFCs are right and the keys are wrong).

Since IR can't tell you the OBC numbers you'd need RM to translate the EFC numbers. My best guess is the 7541 would use the same EFC numbers as your remote, so you could switch the upgrade's choice of remote to 7541 and put in EFC numbers from IR.EXE then switch RM back to 8811 and RM should preserve the OBC values created from those EFCs and compute the new EFC values that fit the 8811.

RM also thinks that Thomson device 3 is fixed data 34 on the 7541 but device 3 is fixed data 30 on the 8811, so your fixed data difference is probably also due to the difference in versions of pid 004B.
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fichmana2003



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I learned the 0-9 numbrt keys from the otiginal, and the EFC codes are the same. The odd thing is IR.EXE, while also stating the correct EFC's, gives me funny data on the learned keys (more than one line, sometimes 3).
While one of the lines always states the correct Thomson protocol (4B), it always gives the EFC's in the format "xxx OR yyy", when one of the choices is the one I also have assigned on the original. All the learned numeric buttons work correctly.

John, what is this 7541 you are talking about? I am a newbie at JP1, so some of the things you said went right over my head...
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The URC-7541 is a model of OFA remote that you can find on RM's pull down menu of which remote model you want to build an upgrade for. (I think all the 75xx models: 7544, 7560, etc. actually do Thomson the same so it wouldn't matter which you choose).

When you decode a learned signal, IR displays both the EFC number that a 7541 etc. would use for that signal and the EFC that an 8811 would use. I forget which is which but it's consistent (whichever is first in one decode is first in all decodes).

When you look at your preloaded upgrade (in that remote I've never heard of) in IR's devices tab, it only shows one EFC. I think that is the EFC a 7541 would use and not the EFC an 8811 would use.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BTW, my decoder (used by IR.EXE) frequently gives extra lines, that are nonsense decodes, before or after (or both) the real decode.

Usually it is easier for a human than a program to distinguish the real decodes and ignore the nonsense. If you didn't start out knowing that the "Thomson" are real and the others nonsense, the usual hint is that the real decode should appear at least once on almost every key with a consistent protocol and device number and with varying OBC numbers (different keys have different OBC numbers). The nonsense decodes probably are less consistent about protocol name or device number (or whether they're there at all) and/or too consistent about OBC number.
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jamesgammel
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The rdf for the force remote bundled with the 1.0 version doesn't have the protocols list. If that's the rdf you are using, then RM wouldn't know just which version of PID 0048 the force remote has native.
Jim
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:
I never heard of a FORCE remote, but if IR.EXE identified it, you must have an RDF for it.

This must be one of UEI's OEM models. There is an RDF in the current distribution named "ETPSTPS0 (Force - 2k version).rdf". It seems to use the same signature as the Dreambox remote "ETPSTPS0 (Dreambox - 1k version).rdf".
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamesgammel wrote:
The rdf for the force remote bundled with the 1.0 version doesn't have the protocols list. If that's the rdf you are using, then RM wouldn't know just which version of PID 0048 the force remote has native.


I never assumed RM would know that. I think the issue is using EFCs from a preexisting upgrade for the force in an RM upgrade for the 8811. I do assume that the UEI employee who created the device upgrade found in the force remote did know which version of the pid was there, even if we don't know.
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fichmana2003



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Since IR can't tell you the OBC numbers you'd need RM to translate the EFC numbers. My best guess is the 7541 would use the same EFC numbers as your remote, so you could switch the upgrade's choice of remote to 7541 and put in EFC numbers from IR.EXE then switch RM back to 8811 and RM should preserve the OBC values created from those EFCs and compute the new EFC values that fit the 8811.


Thanks guys for your help. John, your suggestion worked beautifully! my cable box now works as advertised Smile

another Q: been looking for built-in codes for my equipment and looks most of it is not supported Sad( I will have to build upgrades for most of it.
However, my MARANTZ CD-57 cd deck partially works with 0157. Do I learn the rest and add it as key-moves?
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fichmana2003



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Uploaded file "THOMSON DCI46GC.rmdu" to RM Upgrades section in Yahoo Groups for anyone who needs it.
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usblipitor



Joined: 10 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 10:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fichmana2003 wrote:
my MARANTZ CD-57 cd deck partially works with 0157. Do I learn the rest and add it as key-moves?
See this thread.

Basically from what I read in that string, keymoves take up 5 bytes (6 for 2-byte protocols). In an upgrade, commands take up 2 bytes (3 bytes for 2-byte protocols). So if you have a large number of keys that need to be assigned, it takes less memory to do it as an upgrade. However, with extenders, many people find that they have a lot of keymove memory left over, and not so much upgrade memory. In this case, it might be better to do it all as keymoves to save upgrade memory space.

(Apologies for such a long winded paragraph. Shocked )

-Steve
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

fichmana2003 wrote:
looking for built-in codes for my equipment and looks most of it is not supported


I didn't notice anything in your profile or other posts to confirm this, but I assume you are trying to control European devices with a USA remote. Fortunately you can do that with JP1, but if that's what you are doing it isn't surprising that the built_in setup codes of your remote don't fit your devices very well.

If you happen to know the setup code that UEI advises for your device for the URC-7541, URC-7560, or the European version of the Kameleon, we can probably dig up the data to match that with an upgrade for the 8811.
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

usblipitor wrote:
Basically from what I read in that string, keymoves take up 5 bytes (6 for 2-byte protocols).

Correct.


Quote:
In an upgrade, commands take up 2 bytes (3 bytes for 2-byte protocols).

Like that Hertz commercial: not exactly. Wink

In an upgrade, 1-byte commands take up 1 byte while 2-byte commands take 2. There are several bytes of overhead: a minimum of 3 to a maximum of around 12 or so depending on the number of buttons defined (in the key map bytes) and the number of fixed data bytes. Many 1-byte setup codes can utilize what we call the DigitMap, which is a table of codes for the number buttons. If the setup code can use one of the built-in table entries, that saves 10 bytes in the upgrade.


Quote:
So if you have a large number of keys that need to be assigned, it takes less memory to do it as an upgrade.

IMHO, as a general rule of thumb, anything more than 3 to 5 keymoves might be better done with an upgrade, but it really depends on how the remote is configured overall. The thing to keep in mind is that an upgrade needs to be assigned to a device button to do any good. It's impractical to use 2 (or more) upgrades for 1 device, unless you get into the Device Toggler or Device Multiplexor protocols.


Quote:
However, with extenders, many people find that they have a lot of keymove memory left over, and not so much upgrade memory. In this case, it might be better to do it all as keymoves to save upgrade memory space.

Extenders do allow for significantly more key moves, so for a typical user, key moves in an extender might be better than an upgrade.

Another point to remember about an unextended remote is learned functions. They can and should be used when both upgrade and keymove space is at a premium. Rob's setup (explained here) makes very judicious use of all the remotes available EEPROM space.
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fichmana2003



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 12:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I assume you are trying to control European devices with a USA remote. Fortunately you can do that with JP1, but if that's what you are doing it isn't surprising that the built_in setup codes of your remote don't fit your devices very well.
If you happen to know the setup code that UEI advises for your device for the URC-7541, URC-7560, or the European version of the Kameleon, we can probably dig up the data to match that with an upgrade for the 8811.

You are right, john, I am trying to use european devices with a USA remote. I requested the 8811 because I knew I could do that with JP1 after hours of reading the forums and articles. I do hope I would not run out of space though... my equipment is as follows:
VCR: Thomson VTH 805FE
RCVR: YAMAHA RX-V592
CD: Marantz CD-57
Cable: Thomson CDI 46 GC
DVD: Mico A980S
TV: CONTEC CE-7472

How do I find the codes used for these on the 7541? And if I do find the codes, how'do I remap the keys (I did make a code search for the TV, VCR and CD. couldn't find anything)?

again, thanks for your time and effort.
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