JP1 Remotes

Capn Trips · Expert Joined: 03 Oct 2003 Posts: 3990

I don't have a lot of specific experience with RC-5/RC-6 protocols, but I have seen that for some devices, when the signal is generated from within a string of signals, the duration of the transmitted signal is too short (or marginally so) so that the device does not reliably, repeatably respond. The experts here have on occasion tweaked protocols to extend the duration of the signal to help combat this problem. I'm not sure if short duration is causing your problems, I was just suggesting that it MAY be a possible cause.

So you say that the ToadTog discretes work when called directly from shift-Power/x-shift Power. In those ToadTogs functions, I presume that the actual Power command is the LAST (or only) item in the string, is that correct? If so, then it's possible that you are holding the button down long enough so that duration is not a problem.

Try adding an extra meaningless command AFTER the Power command in those ToadTogs (a Dev_Cancel or something). That will ensure that the Power command transmits its shortest duration. If they still work repeatably and consistently, then I would suspect that duration is NOT your problem, but if the ToadTogs begin working erratically, as when within the LKP, then I would suggest that you need an expert to make you a custom tweak to the RC-5 protocol to extend the duration a bit.
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unclemiltie · Posted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject:

joe

can you give me a little status on your work with the extender? Am I still chasing this bug or did the fixes settle it down for you?

thanks
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joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi Bill and others...

My job kept me away from JP1 fun again, and just had a few moments to experiment again yesterday night...

I cannot achieve consistent results so far, and what seems to emerge from all the tests I did, is that some commands (Namely the Power Toggle, the Discrete ON and the Discrete OFF... these are the only troublesome so far but, then, I haven't tried all of them!) are MORE troublesome than others...

Again, I loaded the most recent version of the empty extender (V1.01) along with its RDF (BTW... where have all the TUNER NUMBER Keys gone??? They were available before, now they aren't anymore... troubles with these too?) and defined some keys for the LKP and DSM...

I have a new IR file Upload:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=4494

In this file I defined the following functions:

Macro1 Key=> SKP=Discrete ON - LKP=Discrete OFF => Doesn't Work Consistently
Macro2 Key=> SKP=Shift-Format (Screen Format Toggle) - LKP=XShift-Format (Auto Screen Format) => WORKS EVERY TIME!
Macro3 Key=> SKP=Power (Power Toggle) - LKP=Discrete OFF => Doesn't Work Consistently
Macro4 Key=> SKP=Shift-Phantom3 (Select EXT3 Input) - LKP=Shift-Phantom2 (Select HDMI2 Input) => WORKS EVERY TIME!
Format Key=> SKP=Shift-Format (Shift Cloaking for Screen Format Toggle) - LKP=XShift-Format (Auto Screen Format) => WORKS EVERY TIME!
Power Key=> SKP=Shift-Power (Shift Cloaking for Power Toggle) - LKP=Discrete OFF => Doesn't Work Consistently
Mute Key => DSM for Shift-Mute (Shift Cloaking for Mute Toggle)-Menu-Menu => WORKS EVERY TIME!

I'm not sure this actually tells something, but it seems to me that the Power commands, all three of them, are the most troublesome, and this does NOT depend upon WHICH key they are bound to.

Even worse, I have observed that, rather consistently, after a few tries with the SKP/LKP power commands the TV will actually switches itself off upon receiving a Power Toggle command but, from then on, it will NOT reespond to ANY further command, not even from the original remote!

Something is definitely altering the power commands, but I don't know WHAT! Sad

Also, note that the Power commands are ALONE in their definitions, so I can extend them by keeping the remote's key pressed (And I see the IR Receive indicator on the TV flashing continuously), and they don't work this way neither. Sad

Is it still DURATION at fault? Is there any way to implement a "Duration" parameter in the Extender, that would allow for troublesome commands to be sent correctly? Or is simply something else running here?

Somebody suggested that the RC5/RC6 protocol is a "Toggle" one, but this would affect ALL command, I believe... and this is NOT the case as some commands definitely DO work!

I'm here if you need me to do some more testing but, please, don't ask me to send my TV over to you to do the testing! Wink

)

Thanks again for your efforts and have a nice day

Joe

vickyg2003 · Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 6:36 am Post subject:

Joe,

I'm the one that has trouble with the toggling RC5 commands in macros. This is really easy to detect because I often have to press a key more than once to have it recognized /macro or not. Once I'm in the correct toggle state all the normal keys work with a single push EXCEPT the menu keys. It seems my OEM remote and device has a separate toggle for menu keys.

If your problem is a toggling problem or a duration problem, you probably can get the desired results by using DiscreteON, DiscreteON twice in your macros. Same with DiscreteOFF, DiscreteOFF. Sending those signals twice shouldn't give you problems.

unclemiltie · Posted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 11:48 am Post subject:

Joe

A couple of thoughts:

1: can you define a macro on two keys (Macro 1/Macro 2) that plays the Keymoves that you have for Discrete on/off. Do these keys work?

2: do the same thing on the non-extended remote, does this work?

Other than that, if someone with CaptureIR could load up a 9960B01 with this extender and your config and look at what's coming out for the LKP's, it would help a lot. I don't have the tools so I can't check it.

-bill
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this JP1 stuff is a sickness!

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi Bill and others...

Please stop this bug search, at least for now...
following your advices, I defined some keys with/without macros and discovered that even the basic, "plain" command "Discrete OFF" didn't work anymore! And each time I observed the same bad behaviour of the TV IR Decoder crashing systematically upon receiving a "Discrete OFF" (not working) and then a "Power Toggle" (Apparently Working but causing all subsequent commands to fail).

This sounded strange to me, as I knew the commands were fine when I tested them all back in december and started to think about WHAT actually changed from then... the answer is

TV FIRMWARE! >8-(

In an effort to keep my TV up-to-date, I always loaded the latest available frmware from Philip's site... and that irmware is the culprit!

I rolled back the firmware three releases behind and the Discrete OFF started to work again! Had no time to test the commands in 9960 B01 Extender Macros, but they basic command DO work.

I have already sent a message to Philips, but I don't expect their response time to be nowhere close to JP1 Experts on these fora... we'll see!

For the time being, thanks Bill and everybody else that gave suggestions to help with this trouble...

My regards, and have a great weekend
Joe

unclemiltie · Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2007 6:55 am Post subject:

Joe

Thanks for the update, this one definitely had me scratching my head. Please let me know if the special protocols work now that you have the "working" firmware installed.

regards

-bill
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this JP1 stuff is a sickness!

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi Bill,

Had a few moments to do some testing with older TV Firmware and Extender's Macros, LDKP, DSM...

EVERYTHING SEEMS TO WORK FINE NOW!
So sorry to have you work you on something that was not Extender's Fault, but how could I have imagined what was actually going on... Sad

Unfortunately. I cannot keep the old firmware, as newer versions fix several bugs in the TV... I have to cope with the lack of Discrete OFF at least until somebody at Philips takes a peek at what I have reported...

BTW, Bill, thanks for the new version of the Extender, but I have one question...

I installed it and the related RDF file but...

where have all the TUNER NUMBER Keys gone???
They were available before, I guess with previous RDF versions, now they aren't anymore...

Any reason for removing them? were you having troubles with these too?

Are these the "Remap" keys you mention in the original extender's thread?

They were used to access the Tuner's preset in the AUDIO mode... what can I do to have them back, if this is possible?

Thanks Bill, for all your time so far...

Have a great weekend,
Joe

unclemiltie · Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject:

Joe

I don't know where yours have gone and since you first reported that they had been missing, I went back and checked (both RM and IR) to see if they were indeed there.

What versions are you using? I'm using a beta of IR7 as my primary vehicle for loading remots and RM 1.77

-bill
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this JP1 stuff is a sickness!

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi Bill,

About the missing keys on the "Layout" screen in RM for the KASAKASX RDF...

Well, they are definitely missing here, and when I noticed this, I assumed they had been removed because of some sort of troubles with the remapped keys... now I understand they SHOULD be there...

I'm using RM V.177 and, using the KASAKAS0 RDF they are in place, while loading the KASAKASX RDF, they just disappear! Sad

To make myself clear:

When I say they are missing, I mean I cannot see them anymore in the "Layout" tab in RM, and they are NOT only the Tuner number keys: Also the Surround Parameters keys are missing there and a few more. As far as I can tell, they ARE present in the "Buttons" tab in RM, but NOT in "Layout".

The keys I'm talking about are the ones that are normally displayed in the same area as the "Phantom Keys", and they are all back if I switch the RDF to the standard KASAKAS0 RDF.

Comparing the two RDFs, I see there are differences in the way these keys are defined:

- in KASAKAS0 they all have their respective "$XX" numbers

- in KASAKASX they have a definition like this:
Tuner_1=$55:ShiftBind,Tuner_2,Tuner_3
Tuner_4=$59:ShiftBind,Tuner_5,Tuner_6,Tuner_7,Tuner_8,Tuner_9,Tuner_0

...this is for the tuner keys... the other missing keys have a similar definition with shiftbind or xshiftbind.

Of course, I have absolutely no knowledge on this, so bear with me!

As far as I remember, these key were still present in the Layout Tab when I was using the RDF from your first release of the Extender, but I deleted the zip file and can't double-check...

Can you, please, explain how can I still use these tuner keys? Is it simply that I cannot use the "Layout" tab and I must use the "Buttons" instead?

I never use the Buttons Tab, as I find it easir to work on the Layout Tab...

Thanks for looking into this, Bill.. look forward to your reply

Ciao
Joe

unclemiltie · Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 7:25 am Post subject:

Interesting

I never use the layout tab and only use the buttons tab so I never looked.

The description of these keys that you mention

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi bill,

Yes, those keys behavior is correct in the Layout tab: you can't drag functions over them when in shift or x-shift layout... but this forces one to use the Button tab to assign functions to them, as there is no target signpost shown for any of these keys in the area where the phantom keys and the Discrete ON/OFF keys are shown i.e. in the area below the remote's image on the left of the Layout panel.

In the non-extended remote (and, as far as I know, also in the first release of your extender) all these particular keys DO show there as small circles that can be targetted when dragging a function to assign it to them.

Well, I am fine as long as at least ONE way to enter functions to these keys exists, and I see this can be done in the Button panel... I can do away without the Layout panel, but is this actually the intended behavior?

Now I'm starting to fight with Macros and LKPs... a whole new world here and I must study a few things.

I'm going to post a question about Device Keys Macros in a separate thread...

Ciao Bill, and thanks again for your attention!

Joe

unclemiltie · Posted: Sun Apr 29, 2007 4:32 pm Post subject:

As I was out working in the yard today, I was thinking about this and bet that the behavior is there not on the Tuner_* buttons and the change in the RDF to not allow shifted functions but in the original (non remapped) buttons and their not allowing to be Xshifted.

When you take an original button (like a 0 for instance with keycode $1F) and Xshift it by ORing $40, you get $54, which is the keycode for the Tuner_0. So, in the latest release of the extender I put an Xshiftbind characteristic on the keys that are remapped.

This behavior does cause RM to do some weird stuff. For example, if you assign something to Tuner_0, you will all of a sudden in button view see key definitions for Xshift-Tuner_0 and Xshift-0 since these are all the same keycode. I'll bet that the logic in RM that deals with what buttons to put on the layout view is also getting confused by this behavior (since those buttons are not allowed to be Xshifted, and this would be $5F for the Tuner_0, it probably says that the button doesn't exist)

Again, someone with RM expertise can probably tell us what's going on here, but that's my best bet.

In a separate note, I've asked if we need to deal with the tools getting a bit confused with the differences in lit and remapped keys in the Kameleon remotes. There's never been any real conclusion from that discssion.

regards

-bill
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this JP1 stuff is a sickness!

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hi Bill,

joedaring · Joined: 04 Jun 2006 Posts: 109

Hellò Bill,

A question about the Pause Special Protocol...

When I try to enter a keymove to define a Pause of, let's say, around 1 sec ($0A should be fine, right?) in the special protocols tab, upon entering the datas in the dialog box the Hex Command area is filled with $XX hex values... is it fine to delete all of them and enter the desired hex value instead? Should these values actually be there, or is it a small bug?

Ciao Bill, and thanks
Joe