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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 9:59 pm Post subject: Will this work for me? |
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I've spent much of the afternoon reading as much as I can on the JP1 stuff here and at RemoteCentral and I must admit that I'm not really getting it. It occurs to me that I might be barking up the wrong tree and maybe I could ask if I'm going the wrong way before I get too far down that path (to mix as many metaphors as possible).
Anyway, I am an MX-500 user and love it. However, my Samsung DLP has discrete codes for the inputs and the MX-500 has no knowledge of this. So I picked up a RS 15-2116 on advice from a post in the AVS Forum, which also listed the OFA codes needed to program the device for my DLP.
This worked great. I captured those codes into the MX-500 and now I can change TV inputs when I pick a device to watch.
Having tasted power, I began to wonder if there were similar capabilities in my aging Kenwood Receiver (KR-X1000). In searching for the answer to that question, I learned that the remote I bought is JP1 compatible and I could order one of those cables and download some software and probably do neat tricks.
Well, that seemed promising so I downloaded lots of software, but I can't follow it. Apparently you have to have the cable first and download from your device first? Is that correct?
So I went to Devices4.xls to see if I could see what devices were supported (found this in the Beginners document), but it's Password Protected and I can't open it.
Anyway, I've now spent about 8 hours just trying to get an idea if my device is even CAPABLE of this. All I want is to be able to choose Video2, 3 or 4 when I pick Tivo, HD or Tivo2 on the MX-500 and it looks like I'll need a lot more effort to get there.
For what it's worth, the codes in my manual that work for the Kenwood are 1027 and 1570. That gets me basic functionality. When I go to the Advanced Codes page here, there are no 4-digit codes, the list stops at 895. I'm not sure how to procede from there. I tried 0313 and 0314, found in some messages, but my device doesn't know them.
I also don't actually use Excel, which limits what I can do with the spreadsheet (which OpenOffice will happily open, but doesn't have the Analysis Pack).
So, am I barking up the wrong tree? Are there no extended codes available for codes 1027 or 1570? Or could I get this to work if I only had a JP1 cable and more time to understand? Where am I supposed to be looking for extended codes for 4 digit codes?
I realize this is a total newbie, totally lost question and the kind that doesn't engender a detailed response, but I AM trying. I suspect the software would make a lot more sense if I had a cable already, but didn't want to order until I knew it was worth it. If there's type-in codes like I have for the Samsung, that'd be ideal. |
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usblipitor
Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 516 Location: Greenbelt, MD |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:31 pm Post subject: |
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Even though you do not have excel, fear not. Remote Master (a java version of KM) exists and will not only run on your PC but even runs on a mac
I think getting a cable is a good idea. But while you are waiting for it to arrive, use whatever setup code OFA provided to set up your 15-2116 to control your aging kenwood receiver. Once you have confirmed that you picked the right setup (power button works, etc) you can use the remote to check all 256 possible EFCs as follows: Aim the remote at the kenwood receiver, press the 'set' button, then press a three digit number, and see if anything interesting happens. set-0-0-0, then set-0-0-1, then set-0-0-2, all the way up to set-2-5-5. This proccess can be made easier with a JP1 cable btw. What is going on: by picking the correct setup for the kenwood receiver you are selecting a kenwood protocol, and then by running through all the EFCs from 000 to 255 you can see all codes that are available, not just the ones on the kenwood original remote. This process can be used to discover interesting codes on many devices besides receivers, but it is advised not to do it on TVs as several makes and models of TVs have codes that put them in a 'service mode' (a mode from hell that is very difficult if not impossible to get out of unless you are a trained professional)
In your note, did you say you could not find a suitable setup code to get the OFA to control your kenwood receiver? Hmmm.. if the kenwood protocol is not built into your remote, then you will need a JP1 cable. _________________ -Steve
Beginner's Guide
CodeSearchFAQ
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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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No, there are two codes that seem to give me control over the Kenwood receiver (1027 and 1570). I read on the Remote Central forum that 1570 is a "combo code" that doesn't support any extended codes.
I tried the "set-0-0-0-0" trick for a few numbers, but since I wasn't sure I was doing it right, the fact that I got no result wasn't necessarily significant.
I have a button labelled "P" that I hold down to eventually get "Code Set" to display on the LCD and from there to program the remote. Is this the button I would use in the test mode? IE, hit P-0-0-0, P-0-0-1, etc? |
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usblipitor
Joined: 10 Oct 2003 Posts: 516 Location: Greenbelt, MD |
Posted: Sun Dec 07, 2003 11:19 pm Post subject: |
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Right, that is the button you want. But to do the set-0-0-0 trick, you don't "hold" it down like you would to setup the remote. just peck and release the P key, then do the 3 digit number. _________________ -Steve
Beginner's Guide
CodeSearchFAQ
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mr_d_p_gumby Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 1370 Location: Newbury Park, CA |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 3:22 am Post subject: |
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Ereth wrote: | IE, hit P-0-0-0, P-0-0-1, etc? | What may not be obvious from the description so far is that the remote will begin transmitting an IR signal when you press the third digit key, and will continue to do so as long as you hold it down. If you just tap the 3rd digit key, you may get a very short command and may not notice if it did anything. _________________ Mike England |
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jon_armstrong Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 1238 Location: R.I.P. 3/25/2005 |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 8:40 am Post subject: |
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Try the numeral buttons in setup codes AUDIO_1027 and AUDIO_1520. Those are usually the discrete input commands. AFAIK, only one recent series of Kenwood receivers have discrete power commands.
Both of those setup codes use two byte protocols so IIUC, the search for commands using the p-xxx method will not provide reliable results.
There is a spreadsheet in the JP1 Yahoo files | devices | audio section called Kenwood-master-list.zip that Rob Crowe put together that has a matrix of most Kenwood commands. That spreadsheet is just information so you can either download the free Excel "reader" or open it in Open Office. _________________ -Jon |
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johnsfine Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 4766 Location: Bedford, MA |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 9:48 am Post subject: Re: Will this work for me? |
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Ereth wrote: | the codes in my manual that work for the Kenwood are 1027 and 1570. |
Both of those are combo setup codes for the NEC1 protocol, device 184.
Tuner/1570 is subdevices 0, 1, 2 and 3 (but most of the commands in it are subdevice 0).
Tuner/1027 is subdevices 1 and 71, mostly 71. I'm a bit surprised both 1027 and 1570 work for you since their command sets are so different.
As you have found, EFC numbers (AKA "advanced codes") don't work in combo setup codes.
You should try the setup code CD/0028. It is NEC1 protocol, device 184, subdevice 0. It is not a combo, so EFC codes should work. Only subdevice 0 is possible for its EFC codes, but maybe the commands you want will turn out to be subdevice 0.
There are a lot of CCF files for similar devices at RC, which can be a source of EFC numbers. For example they list 130 as the EFC number for the Sleep command.
Ereth wrote: |
That gets me basic functionality. When I go to the Advanced Codes page here, there are no 4-digit codes, the list stops at 895. I'm not sure how to procede from there. I tried 0313 and 0314, found in some messages, but my device doesn't know them. |
Some of what you said seems to be confused about 3 vs. 4 digit numbers. Setup code numbers are 4 digits long (must have enough leading zeroes to fill them to exactly 4 digits). EFC numbers are 3 digits long.
Ereth wrote: | I also don't actually use Excel, which limits what I can do with the spreadsheet (which OpenOffice will happily open, but doesn't have the Analysis Pack). |
The JP1 group's xls files require Excel.
If you get the cable and want to generate commands for subdevices other than 0, you should use the RemoteMaster (Java program) rather than the KM xls file.
Ereth wrote: |
So, am I barking up the wrong tree? Are there no extended codes available for codes 1027 or 1570? |
I'm not sure. EFC numbers wouldn't be listed for 1027 or 1570 because they're combo codes. EFC numbers listed for CD/0028 might apply to the CD which uses those codes rather than to the Amp that overlaps.
The best source is CCF files decoded with my DecodeCCF program. But function names may be unclear in CCF files. In one of those files, it looks like the following EFC numbers are the discrete input commands, but it's hard to be sure: 127, 183, 128, 129, 126.
Ereth wrote: |
Or could I get this to work if I only had a JP1 cable and more time to understand? Where am I supposed to be looking for extended codes for 4 digit codes? |
With the JP1 cable you can create signals for all the subdevices of device 184. Without it you can only create the specific signals preprogrammed in 1027 and 1570 plus all the subdevice 0 commands from CD/0028. |
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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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jon_armstrong wrote: | There is a spreadsheet in the JP1 Yahoo files | devices | audio section called Kenwood-master-list.zip that Rob Crowe put together that has a matrix of most Kenwood commands. That spreadsheet is just information so you can either download the free Excel "reader" or open it in Open Office. |
I did download this, but I don't understand it. I see a couple entries for my system, but what dev1, dev2, etc, are is unclear. I think I need a better understanding of what is going on before I can understand the spreadsheet. I did note everything was 184 (which appears to be how you guys refer to the device, but I don't know why), but then there were three other columns with numbers that I had no idea what they meant. |
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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:19 pm Post subject: Re: Will this work for me? |
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johnsfine wrote: |
You should try the setup code CD/0028. It is NEC1 protocol, device 184, subdevice 0. It is not a combo, so EFC codes should work. Only subdevice 0 is possible for its EFC codes, but maybe the commands you want will turn out to be subdevice 0. |
I'll try this, though I'm having trouble understanding how a CD could possibly have multiple input codes built in.
Quote: | Some of what you said seems to be confused about 3 vs. 4 digit numbers. Setup code numbers are 4 digits long (must have enough leading zeroes to fill them to exactly 4 digits). EFC numbers are 3 digits long. |
Sorry, device codes listed here are all 4 digits, but they all have leading zeros. 0895 is the highest code on the web site and my codes (1207 and 1570) are not listed. I was meaning 4 digit in that the first digit was a 1 and not a zero. That was unclear, wasn't it? Sorry.
Quote: | If you get the cable and want to generate commands for subdevices other than 0, you should use the RemoteMaster (Java program) rather than the KM xls file. |
Is that in the files area for the Yahoo Group? I must've overlooked it as I didn't see it.
Quote: | The best source is CCF files decoded with my DecodeCCF program. But function names may be unclear in CCF files. In one of those files, it looks like the following EFC numbers are the discrete input commands, but it's hard to be sure: 127, 183, 128, 129, 126. |
Ok, so maybe (and it's a maybe) if I use CD 0028 then P127 might select an input? I'll try that tonight.
Quote: | With the JP1 cable you can create signals for all the subdevices of device 184. Without it you can only create the specific signals preprogrammed in 1027 and 1570 plus all the subdevice 0 commands from CD/0028. |
I'm willing to buy the cable, but must admit that this last paragraph loses me. I'm not sure (a) where "device 184" came from, though I see you referenced it multiple times. Nor am I clear on what subdevice signals it would have or how I would know to generate them.
I'm thinking there's a conceptual step I'm missing here. How did you get from the "my code that works is 1027" to "that's NEC1 protocol, device 184"? What are subdevices? Is that at all related to the "Control-S" cables that allows the Amp to control all the attached devices (such as the CD player and the Tape player)? |
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The Robman Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003 Posts: 21234 Location: Chicago, IL |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Will this work for me? |
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johnsfine wrote: | You should try the setup code CD/0028. It is NEC1 protocol, device 184, subdevice 0. It is not a combo, so EFC codes should work. Only subdevice 0 is possible for its EFC codes, but maybe the commands you want will turn out to be subdevice 0. |
Actually, CD/0028 is NEC1, device code 184 with no sub-device. RCVR/0313 is NEC1 184.0 but this code isn't present in the 15-2116 as it was replaced by the RCVR/1313 combo. _________________ Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
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johnsfine Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 4766 Location: Bedford, MA |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 12:51 pm Post subject: Re: Will this work for me? |
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Ereth wrote: |
I'll try this, though I'm having trouble understanding how a CD could possibly have multiple input codes built in. |
I assume it can't. But each IR protocol has a finite number of possible signals it can encode. In NEC1 protocol there are 256 possible device numbers (but often a manufacturer will use just one of those). There are 256 possible subdevices and 256 possible commands.
CD/0028 has pre assigned to buttons various commands that presumably (I haven't checked) operate some CD player from the same manufacturer as your Amp. I wasn't suggesting trying those buttons. CD/0028 has the ability to generate all 256 possible commands for device 184, with no subdevice.
I blew it earlier, misreading "no subdevice" as "subdevice 0". They aren't the same. Now that I see this, I don't think CD/0028 will help.
Ereth wrote: |
Is that in the files area for the Yahoo Group? I must've overlooked it as I didn't see it. |
RM (RemoteMaster) is at SourceForge rather than in the Yahoo JP1 files area, but there should be an HTML link to it posted in the folder with the other JP1 tools.
Ereth wrote: |
I'm willing to buy the cable, but must admit that this last paragraph loses me. I'm not sure (a) where "device 184" came from, though I see you referenced it multiple times. Nor am I clear on what subdevice signals it would have or how I would know to generate them.
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With the 15-2116 you can learn signals from the original remote (or from another UEI remote). With the JP1 cable you can transfer those signals to a PC, where they can be decoded giving you the protocol name, device number, subdevice number and command number.
UEI semi-randomly assigned setup code numbers to various protocol/device/subdevice sets so there is no systematic way to get from one (setup code Tuner/1570) to the other (NEC1:184 various subdevices).
If you have a JP1 cable you wouldn't need to. You can just decode a few signals and build a new setup code. |
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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 1:47 pm Post subject: |
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I guess that's the part that puzzles me.
My original remote can NOT do what I want, so I don't quite understand how learning from it will help me.
For inputs it has an Input Up and Input Down button and you have to cycle through them.
I think I now understand that what you are saying is that even though the Remote I have won't do what I want, by sending the data on what it WILL do through the JP1 cable, the computer can figure out what Device and Protocol it uses and point me in the direction of the codes I would need to do the other features that aren't present in the remote (assuming they ARE actually present in the Receiver)?
That would begin to make sense and would explain why I couldn't make heads or tails of it without having the JP1 cable as a starting point. |
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johnsfine Site Admin
Joined: 10 Aug 2003 Posts: 4766 Location: Bedford, MA |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:19 pm Post subject: |
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Here's something strange (and maybe relevent). Someone posted a CCF file for a KRX-1000 at RemoteCentral.
He claims to have done an extensive search and not found any discrete codes (that would be quite bad news if you trust his results). He claims to have regenerated "clean codes" for all the signals. The strange part is that instead of subdevice 0, he has no subdevice (he also has a few codes with subdevice 1 and 2).
There is a version of IrTool floating around that makes exactly that mistake. Decode a signal with subdevice 0 and reencode it "clean" at it changes to "no subdevice" (I'm not the only one who ever confused the two). I expect he used that. But didn't he test the result?
You reported that setup code 1027 does basic functions, but I think setup code 1027 has mostly subdevice 71, which must be wrong. Does this mean your device isn't looking too closely at the subdevice value in the IR signal? In which case CD/0028 might work after all. |
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Ereth
Joined: 07 Dec 2003 Posts: 10
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Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:47 pm Post subject: |
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The receiver is quite old and I would not be surprised to learn that it has no discrete codes at all. It was, however, the top of the line unit when it was made, so it's conceivable that it does. It came with an LCD Remote that would control multiple Kenwood devices (cd, tape player, even a TV, though I've never seen a Kenwood TV).
I tested very briefly the 6 or 7 codes in the manual, and both 1027 and 1570 gave me volume up/down and mute. I can't remember if I tested any other keys than those. Video Input worked on one of them, but I don't remember if I tried it on both.
There are 2 copies of that Kenwood-master.XLS spreadsheet, and the 2nd one I found had 4 additional entries for the KR-X1000. They weren't in the video section, but from my limited understanding of the spreadsheet I thought they indicated Discrete Codes that the author had found. The text "KR-X1000" was even in bold, as if it were a new update.
But my desire to understand JP1 and the tools you guys have goes further (well, besides the fact that I'm a geek and have a need to understand things). Assuming I replace the receiver at some point, I want to ensure that what I replace it with will have discrete codes. I was trying to understand the system enough that I could look up receivers I don't own, but am considering, in order to determine if they'd have sufficient codes for my needs before I purchased them. This is why I tried to open the Devices4.xls spreadsheet, thinking it would translate names to devices (apparently I was wrong on that point. I don't know as the spreadsheet wouldn't open in OpenOffice).
I also looked for DecodeCCF, but could only find a DLL that mentioned that it was used by DecodeCCF. Is that on Sourceforge, too? |
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Mark Pierson Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003 Posts: 3017 Location: Connecticut, USA |
Posted: Mon Dec 08, 2003 2:53 pm Post subject: Re: Will this work for me? |
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Ereth wrote: | Quote: | Some of what you said seems to be confused about 3 vs. 4 digit numbers. Setup code numbers are 4 digits long (must have enough leading zeroes to fill them to exactly 4 digits). EFC numbers are 3 digits long. |
Sorry, device codes listed here are all 4 digits, but they all have leading zeros. 0895 is the highest code on the web site and my codes (1207 and 1570) are not listed. |
In the JP1 world, the term Device Code refers to a decimal number that is associated with a specific protocol used by the remote. A Setup Code is the 4-digit number associated with a device type that you find in the owner's manuals, usually referred to as Manufacturer Code, i.e. CD/0028.
Quote: | CD/0028 is NEC1, device code 184 with no sub-device |
In the above, CD/0028 is the Setup Code. It uses a Device Code of 184. Basically, the Setup Code tells the remote how to format the IR signal sent to the actual device, and the Device Code provides specific data to send with EVERY signal (think of this as a "header"). The function commands (referred to as EFC's and/or OBC's in JP1), are sent for their corresponding buttons, in addition to the header, each time a button is pressed. It's these various signal encodings that wake up the device and tell it what to do. If the device doesn't understand what Device Code 184 is, it will ignore the rest of the IR data. _________________ Mark |
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