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a toadtog question
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 10:55 pm    Post subject: a toadtog question Reply with quote

Here are my toadtog hex commands for the syntax olevia TV
(Created thru Spcl Prot Fns in IR)

discrete ON - $88 $68 $83
discrete OFF - $0A $68 $83

so the question is, if the user uses Power button on remote to toggle the power, would that unsynch toadtog? (thats what happening to me anyway).

If that is true, it would mean that I should disable the power toggle on the remote (and provide discrete on and discrete off) so the synch stays.

Or does toadtog track the power toggle button on the remote?

Thanks

(few more questions for 3-4 weeks and I will be done with my setup the way I want it, then I will write it up Wink )
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 2:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SHORT ANSWER:

If you look in the SP Tab in IR and go to create a ToadTog function, you will see FOUR types of ToadTogs listed. You have used the "Force ON" and "Force OFF" functions. What you need is the "(toggle)" function and assign it to your Power button. Then when you press the Power button, it will always both send the power signal, and flip the flag.

If you use this, you will find it creates a ToadTog code of
02 68 83 68 83.

LONG ANSWER:

ToadTog does NOT track the number of times the Power function is sent.

ToadTog sets or unsets its flag AS YOU TELL IT TO, and no other time.

Therefore:
Your discrete ON ToadTog function tests to see if the flag is set,

(A) if not set (i.e. "OFF"), it:
(1) sends the power signal, and
(2) sets the flag

(B) if it IS set (i.e. "ON"), , it:
(1) does nothing

Discrete OFF ToadTog similarly tests the flag first

(A) if not set it:
(1) does nothing;

(B) if set, it:
(1) sends the Power signal and
(2) clears the flag

So when you execute the "naked" Power function, you are not invoking ToadTog, and the flag is neither tested nor set/cleared, so you wil get:
(1) the Power signal will always be sent,and
(2) The flag will remain in its previous state,
hence

OUT OF SYNCH.

Hence the need to do what I describe in the SHORT ANSWER above.

Keep in mind, however, that if you use this method to assign the (toggle) function to your Power button, you cannot use the Power button itself in your ToadTog sequences, or else you will end up with it calling itself, so you need to use "shift-Power" instead, to take advantage of shift-cloaking. (unless, of course, you already have a function assigned to shift-Power via a keymove or macro or other Special Protocol function, in which case you will have to assign the Power function to a yet other button (e.g x-shift Phantom 3) and call on IT in your ToadTog sequences)

(I'm not sure what remote you're using but I believe button 83 is already "shift-Power" so you should be OK)
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 9:34 pm    Post subject: thanks Reply with quote

Thanks Capn!
great, that worked perfectly. (and thanks for the detailed answer)
The TV has a delay in accepting the singals however. (about a second after the power off and about 2 seconds after power on) so if I press any of these in quick succession, the synch goes off! (may be I can add a delay in the toadtog?)

I was using the file that you had uploaded as my guide file. and I didnt see the toggle function in your ir file. So I did not have one. (May be you are implementing it in a different way, or may be you have uploaded your earlier version.

Since play and pause also turn on my dvd player, I think I would need to change them to forceON toadtog functions to make my toadtog more userproof Wink. But I will wait on that to see the user behavior.

(and yes I am using shift-cloaked power after going thru the infinite power loop in my LKP power for all off Smile, the remote is RS 15-2117 extender 3

Right now I am working with the Pause protocol, since my Yamaha receiver is not ready to receive the input select for about 2 seconds after power on, I need to add that pause in my macro, however the pause is not working. So if I dont figure it out soon enough, expect a question on that next Wink

Once again sincere thanks for your immediate help.
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2006 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got pause protocol to work. I saw some discussion about the extender protocol not working for LCD remotes, so I think that is why it was not working for me. I copied the protocol from RM and now the pause works fine.

However just encountered the problem for the toad power toggle. I am using LKP on Power for all off. and it doesnt allow toad (toggle) on Power button, because there is already something on this device/key combo. So does that mean that I cant have LKP power if I want a proper toadtog? How did you get around that Capn Trips?

Thanks
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tnkrer wrote:
Got pause protocol to work. I saw some discussion about the extender protocol not working for LCD remotes, so I think that is why it was not working for me. I copied the protocol from RM and now the pause works fine.

However just encountered the problem for the toad power toggle. I am using LKP on Power for all off. and it doesnt allow toad (toggle) on Power button, because there is already something on this device/key combo. So does that mean that I cant have LKP power if I want a proper toadtog? How did you get around that Capn Trips?

Thanks

I simply do not use any ToadTog-generated Power toggle commands. I see no use for them, as I do not "toggle" Power to any individual piece of equipment (except to regain synch).

Basically, each "Device Button" is programmed to TURN ON (and line up) everything required to view/listen to THAT device. If I switch devices (by pressing ANOTHER device button) I just leave the previously-energised, no-longer-in-use device on - It's no big deal.

The Power button is my "All OFF" macro.

(1) I use the Discrete ON/OFF wherever they exist (Receiver, TV)
(2) and for ONE piece of gear (my Sky+ satellite box) I use a "Play-Stop" sequence as a Discrete ON, and a "Play-Power" sequence as a Discrete OFF (It's actually "Sky+" for ON and "Sky+ - Power" for OFF, but the concept is the same);
(3) ToadTog-generated "ForceON" and "ForceOFF" for three other pieces of gear (VCR-DVD player, Scientific Atlanta Sat box, and Yamaha video switcher).

Occasionally, the component for which I use ToadTog get out-of-synch anyways, so I keep available access to the raw Power toggle commands ("shift-Power") (NOT utilising ToadTog) to allow me to quickly restore synch.

As for some pieces of gear not responding for a few seconds after powering up, that's not uncommon. I'm glad you sorted out the Pause protocol. That's what it's for.

In my Second ("kids'") TV room, the JVC TV is SO slow in getting "ready" to receive after powering up (~10-15 seconds!) that NO amount of Pause is sufficient, so I have resigned us to a 2-step process, where FIRST one simply powers up the TV, then after a while, press the desired Device button to turn on everything else and select inputs on the TV.
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Remotes:Atlas OCAP URC 1056, Harmony One, OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: Panasonic TH-50PE700U; LG 65" Smart LED TV; RCVR: Pioneer VSX-D2016S;Onkyo TX-SR875
DVD/VCR: LG Blu-Ray player, Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A1 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc/CD changer: Pioneer CLD-704.
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capn Trips wrote:

I simply do not use any ToadTog-generated Power toggle commands. I see no use for them, as I do not "toggle" Power to any individual piece of equipment (except to regain synch).


I wish my users (wife, kid) were that desciplined. They WILL use power button and forget to use any "all off" button I provide.
Quote:

Basically, each "Device Button" is programmed to TURN ON (and line up) everything required to view/listen to THAT device. If I switch devices (by pressing ANOTHER device button) I just leave the previously-energised, no-longer-in-use device on - It's no big deal.

similar behaviour for me but for long press of the device key.

I thought about using "Play, Power" as discrete OFF for my devices. But didnt like the idea of actually turning on the device when I want to turn it off. (even if for a few seconds, due to delays in the device accepting the code and such)
I might use "Play, Stop" as discrete ON and toadtog discrete OFF if I can write it up correctly Wink (Advantage, ON always works without synch problems and off does not turn on the device unnecessarily)

So the question is now, can I have toadtog and LKP on the same kee somehow?
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tnkrer wrote:
Capn Trips wrote:
I simply do not use any ToadTog-generated Power toggle commands. I see no use for them, as I do not "toggle" Power to any individual piece of equipment (except to regain synch).
I wish my users (wife, kid) were that desciplined. They WILL use power button and forget to use any "all off" button I provide.
Training and discipline are required!! (not to mention the threat of sever corporal punishment)
tnkrer wrote:
Quote:
Basically, each "Device Button" is programmed to TURN ON (and line up) everything required to view/listen to THAT device. If I switch devices (by pressing ANOTHER device button) I just leave the previously-energised, no-longer-in-use device on - It's no big deal.
similar behaviour for me but for long press of the device key.
So is mine, but that aspect of it was immaterial to the current discussion.
tnkrer wrote:
I thought about using "Play, Power" as discrete OFF for my devices. But didnt like the idea of actually turning on the device when I want to turn it off. (even if for a few seconds, due to delays in the device accepting the code and such)
I might use "Play, Stop" as discrete ON and toadtog discrete OFF if I can write it up correctly Wink (Advantage, ON always works without synch problems and off does not turn on the device unnecessarily)
This can certainly be done, but you will still have to create a ToadTog, regardless, for your ON command in order to set the flag properly. Something like:

for Force ON:
Already ON - Play, Stop
Off/On - Play, Stop

for Force OFF:
On/Off - Power
Already Off - (blank)

With Dev-X as appropriate throughout.

This way Force ON will ALWAYS send the signal, but set the flag only the FIRST time you send it, until you send a Force OFF command. So Force OFF will only send the command IF the flag is set.
tnkrer wrote:
So the question is now, can I have toadtog and LKP on the same kee somehow?
Yes, of course. You assign the ToadTog functions to whatever key, phantom key, shifted key or x-shifted key you desire (since I never access them directly, I use phantom 1 and 2 (or Discrete ON and OFF if the RDF has these)). Then your LKP sequence(s) call(s) on that(those) particular button(s) whenever required.
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Remotes:Atlas OCAP URC 1056, Harmony One, OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: Panasonic TH-50PE700U; LG 65" Smart LED TV; RCVR: Pioneer VSX-D2016S;Onkyo TX-SR875
DVD/VCR: LG Blu-Ray player, Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A1 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc/CD changer: Pioneer CLD-704.
Streaming: Intel NUC PC
(But I still have to get up for my beer)
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capn Trips wrote:
Training and discipline are required!! (not to mention the threat of sever corporal punishment)

Wink gotta choose my battles there. This one I have decided to give up Wink
Quote:
This can certainly be done, but you will still have to create a ToadTog, regardless, for your ON command in order to set the flag properly. Something like:

for Force ON:
Already ON - Play, Stop
Off/On - Play, Stop

for Force OFF:
On/Off - Power
Already Off - (blank)

With Dev-X as appropriate throughout.

This way Force ON will ALWAYS send the signal, but set the flag only the FIRST time you send it, until you send a Force OFF command. So Force OFF will only send the command IF the flag is set.

thanks I will do that.
Quote:
tnkrer wrote:
So the question is now, can I have toadtog and LKP on the same kee somehow?
Yes, of course. You assign the ToadTog functions to whatever key, phantom key, shifted key or x-shifted key you desire (since I never access them directly, I use phantom 1 and 2 (or Discrete ON and OFF if the RDF has these)). Then your LKP sequence(s) call(s) on that(those) particular button(s) whenever required.


I was talking about the toggle toadtog function on the Power key and LKP on the power key. IR did not let me do that. (Since you do not have Power toggle toadotg, I think you did not face that problem)
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floyd1977



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, you cannot assign both a ToadTog and LKP on the same key (ToadTogs and LKPs are special cases of key moves). You'll need to assign your LKP to the Power key. Then, you can define your ToadTog on another key, that can be called from either the long or short portion of your LKP, depending on how you want to use it.

Edit: I just realized I said the same thing Capn just said, so you can either read my post or re-read his!
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tnkrer wrote:
Quote:
tnkrer wrote:
So the question is now, can I have toadtog and LKP on the same kee somehow?
Yes, of course. You assign the ToadTog functions to whatever key, phantom key, shifted key or x-shifted key you desire (since I never access them directly, I use phantom 1 and 2 (or Discrete ON and OFF if the RDF has these)). Then your LKP sequence(s) call(s) on that(those) particular button(s) whenever required.


I was talking about the toggle toadtog function on the Power key and LKP on the power key. IR did not let me do that. (Since you do not have Power toggle toadotg, I think you did not face that problem)
Actually, I DO have LKPs on my Power button as follows:

Short: executes DEV_X, Discrete Off (whether it's an actual discrete function, a ToadTog, or a Play-OFF sequence)
Long: executes my "ALL OFF macro" (which is built as a macro on some phantom key somewhere)

So for me, a SHORT press of Power turns off the currently active device, and a long press shuts everything off. There's no reason you cannot do this as well, but assign the ToadTog Power Toggle function to the Short keypress (instead of the Discrete OFF that I have), and your All OFF macro to the Long keypress.

The way I have it I used a separate LKP on Power for each device mode, but even THIS can be reduced to a single LKP called by a macro on the Power button, if you structure your keymoves, ToadTog's and LKPs cleverly.

Example:
You have already created ToadTog Power Toggle functions that are all currently assigned to the Power button for each device (using shift-cloaking, right?)
(1) Change each of those functions to the x-shifted Power button in that device mode - NOW YOUR POWER TOGGLES ARE ALL ON x-shift-Power for each device;
(2) Build your ALL OFF macro on (I randomly selected) shift-phantom 3;
(3) Build an LKP on (I randomly selected) TV device/x-shift phantom 3 as follows:
SHORT=DEV_Cancel, x-shift Power
LONG=shift-Phantom 3;
(4) Build a macro on Power: Dev_TV, x-shift phantom 3 (i.e it will call the LKP)

NOW a short press of Power will execute your current device's x-shift Power (presumably Power Toggle) function,
WHILST a long press of Power will call your ALL OFF macro.
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TVs: Panasonic TH-50PE700U; LG 65" Smart LED TV; RCVR: Pioneer VSX-D2016S;Onkyo TX-SR875
DVD/VCR: LG Blu-Ray player, Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A1 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
Posts: 48

PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Floyd and Capn, thanks. Did not realize that I have a short keypress available for programming on the LKP Very Happy

couple of quick questions,
1. Dev_Cancel means current device? Is there a name for current device?
2. The dev selection in LKP/macro goes away when the LKP is over - is that a correct statement? meaning In my Macro for phantom1 I have
SET_*_KEYS, DEV_TV, SET_PIP_KEYS
which is called from my LKP on the device,
VCR LKP(2) = <bunch of stuff>, DEV_VCR, phantom1
At the end the remote is in vcr device. (I am happy that it works that way, just wanted to confirm it)

And now for the final (hopefully) toadtog question
My TV has 7 inputs, and no discrete codes for those inputs.
I am using 5 of those (composite for VCR, S for older dvd player, component for newer DVD player, VGA for my computer, DVI for HDTV
The cycle that the TV provides does not cycle thru all of these. (only cycles thru composite, S-video and component). So I have created a macro that cycles thru the inputs using DEV_TV, input select, down, enter
Can I use toadtog to remember which input I am on and then doing appropriate number of down to get to the input I want? Is that even possible? If not, what would be the best way to handle this?


Last edited by tnkrer on Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
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floyd1977



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. I believe Dev_Cancel cancels out of the last temporary device selection. In other words, the sequence "DEV_VCR, DEV_TV, Dev_Cancel" would have the same effect as "DEV_VCR", no matter what you call the "current device" is. I'm not 100% on this though; maybe someone can confirm/deny.

2. The DEV_* commands are temproary; the SET_*_KEYS, however, persist until set otherwise. In other words, "DEV_VCR, SET_TRANS_KEYS" will assign transport keys to the VCR device until SET_TRANS_KEYS is called again on a different device.

Final Question -- You should be able to use a combination of ToadTogs to accomplish this, but I think it will require a lot of ToadTogs.

Instead, you might consider using set up macros for each of your devices. For instance, in my setup, I hold down the CD button (LKP) when I want to use the CD player. This turns on the CD player, turns on the receiver and sets the receiver to the CD input, and turns off all other devices. When I want to use the HD receiver, I hold down CBL, which turns the HD receiver on, turns on the TV and sets it to component input, turns on the receiver and sets it to TV/SAT, and turns off everything else.

If you take this approach, you won't really need a button to cycle through your TV's inputs.
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tnkrer



Joined: 18 May 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am using LKP on device to set the device up. However this TV does not provide discrete input selects. Sad (or I have not been able to find those and the Syntax support claimed that they do not have discrete codes for this TV).
So currently the LKP on device turns on the device, receiver, TV, sets the input of the receiver to the device. What remains is setting the input select on the TV to proper source. So if I can use toadtog to get the input I want, thats what I will do. Otherwise, I have to use the cycle Sad
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

floyd1977 wrote:
1. I believe Dev_Cancel cancels out of the last temporary device selection. In other words, the sequence "DEV_VCR, DEV_TV, Dev_Cancel" would have the same effect as "DEV_VCR"


I'm pretty sure that is wrong.

I haven't looked at the details of this particular extender, but I think there is only one level of "temporary" device selection and Dev_cancel cancels it, so you're back to the control of whatever SET_* command you did for whatever key group you plan to use next.

floyd1977 wrote:

2. The DEV_* commands are temproary; the SET_*_KEYS, however, persist until set otherwise. In other words, "DEV_VCR, SET_TRANS_KEYS" will assign transport keys to the VCR device until SET_TRANS_KEYS is called again on a different device.


Correct. Each SET_* command lasts until the next SET_* of the same group. It can be temporarily hidden by a Dev_* command and is then unhidden by either a Dev_cancel or the return from macro processing to waiting for a keystroke.
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floyd1977



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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2006 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tnkrer wrote:
I am using LKP on device to set the device up. However this TV does not provide discrete input selects. Sad (or I have not been able to find those and the Syntax support claimed that they do not have discrete codes for this TV).
So currently the LKP on device turns on the device, receiver, TV, sets the input of the receiver to the device. What remains is setting the input select on the TV to proper source. So if I can use toadtog to get the input I want, thats what I will do. Otherwise, I have to use the cycle Sad


I understand that your TV doesn't have discrete input selects, but I thought you said there is a sequence of key presses you can use to get to the correct input for a given device. If that's the case, you can insert this sequence into the setup macro for that device.
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