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Partial upgrading?
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whompus



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wasn't trying to imply you where attempting to hide anything. After reading my post again I can see how it could be read to seem that way. For that I am sorry.

The most efficient way would be to use or build an upgrade for it. That way it is in upgrade area and leaves move/macro and learn area open.

To just use your tv as an example again. You could most likely use visio rp56 or gateway tv upgrade file and remove any functions you don't intend to use. That way your keymove area is still free.

Also if you don't mind. I have a question about that tv. Does it come standard with the cat 48 remote like the gateway or is it the cat 34 that comes with it? I noticed on there website they mention both remotes but I don't see what one comes with it.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 12:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixup wrote:
I did not try to hide anything, I was thinking about a general and good method for adding few missing keys. This has nothing to do with a specific TV or DVD. I used my TV as an example. Anyway, it is a Vizio 50" plasma, build-in code 0178. I don't need any help on this specific TV remote, it had been already fully working before I asked here. I just wanted to know what's the easiest and most efficient general way to do such a thing right.

As everybody here has tried to explain, you're looking for a complicated solution where an easy solution already exists.

1) If you have a working setup code and you don't want to build a new upgrade (for whatever reason), use learning and/or keymoves to program the missing buttons. You don't need JP1 for this solution.

2) If you don't want to waste either the learning or keymove memory for this, create an upgrade.

It's quite simple.
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Fixup



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 20
Location: OR

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not that simple if I want to do it the most efficiently. Yes I can simply use learn function, but it consumes too much memory. If I know the EFC codes for the missing functions, I can simply use keymover.

So far, whompus's way is the best, use the learned codes to create a simple upgrade and copy it into IR.

My Vizio P50 HDM's remote is actually a universal JP1.2 (I saw this JP in battery chamber). It has TV, VCR, CABLE and DVD modes, full PIP buttons. The TV's manual says its setup code is 0178 for cable or sat remotes; 10178 for 5 digit remotes; 627 for 3 digits. Its top is gray, bottom is black. I don't those remotes you mentioned.
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixup wrote:
It is not that simple if I want to do it the most efficiently. Yes I can simply use learn function, but it consumes too much memory. If I know the EFC codes for the missing functions, I can simply use keymover.

So far, whompus's way is the best, use the learned codes to create a simple upgrade and copy it into IR.

I'm not sure what you mean by "efficient" since learning memory is physically distinct from upgrade memory, which is further physically distinct from Keymove/Macro memory, so "efficient" really depends on what kind of memory you have most available to use.

(Now using an extender shifts the memory allocation boundaries, and then "efficient" takes on a new meaning, since all learning memory is then reallocated.)

If a simplistic definition of "efficient" is "uses least memory - OF ANY KIND" then the likely best way to do this is:
(1) identify your partially-working built-in setup code;
(2) learn the and decode the few OEM buttons that are NOT covered by that setup code(now you have their EFCs);
(3) create keymoves calling on the setup code that works using these EFCs (and delete the previously-learned functions).

A few caveats apply:
(1) this presumes that your device uses single-byte EFCs;
(2) this presumes that your LEARNED functions (that you decode) use the same protocol/device combination that the partially-working setup code uses - if not, you may still be able to make simple Keymoves, but calling on a DIFFERENT setup code than the one that works partially - see the devices.xls spreadsheet in the files section for a list of remotes and what setup codes can be found (sortable by protocol/device) included;
(3) this presumes you have a small number of functions to Keymove.

The threshold varies with each specific circumstance, but if you're talking about 6 or fewer functions, you're probably being most efficient using Keymoves, if you're talking aobut 12 or more functions, you're probably more "efficient" building a new upgrade (but again, that depends, if you have to add a bulky Combo Protocol upgrade to make your upgrade work, the threshhold may be as high as around 20 functions or so) AND you'll be using different memory, which may be in greater or shorter supply than Keymove memory in you particular case.

Finally, if your Keymove/Macro memory is all used up, and your upgrade memory is low, as well, you may as well use the learning memory for learned functions, since it's going to waste otherwise. (i.e. what are you saving it for?)

So, the answer is, there IS no simple answer to your question.

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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixup wrote:
It is not that simple if I want to do it the most efficiently. Yes I can simply use learn function, but it consumes too much memory. If I know the EFC codes for the missing functions, I can simply use keymover.

The 100% most efficient way to do this IS to create an upgrade. I know you have other idea about what is efficient and I see that the Capn has tried to explain them for you, but I'm guessing that you may remain unconvinced. Therefore, all I can say is "trust me".

See if the following doc helps...
http://www.hifi-remote.com/jp1/help/
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whompus



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know when there site gets updated and such, but it boldly states their universal remote is the cat48. Which as far as I know are all jp1 remotes. It may be labeled jp1.2 but still be jp1. I have seen some remotes that was labeled jp1.2 but where really jp1. Have you hooked it to your cable and open ir to download from the remote to see if it can see the remote. You may have a nice jp1 remote there and just not know about it.

This is there site I am talking about if you want to check it out.
http://www.vinc.com/site/support/faq_remotes.html#5

Out of curiosity I looked a bit more there. If the remote is what they are calling vur2 (vizio universal remote 2) It is a cat 48 if it is vur4 then I have no clue what that is. I does look nice.


Last edited by whompus on Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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gfb107
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this will help.

Let's assume there are no learned signals, keymoves or macros.

When a key is pressed, the remote does the following:
  1. Checks if there is a learned signal assigned to that key in that device mode.
  2. Checks if there is a keymove assigned to that key in that device mode.
  3. Checks if there is a macro assigned to that key.
  4. Look in the EEPROM for the device upgrade for that device mode. If there isn't one, look in ROM for the device upgrade for that device mode.
  5. Look in the device upgrade for a function assigned to the key
  6. IF there is a function assigned, send it.


The firmware in the remotes don't "chain" from a device upgrade in EEPROM to a builtin device upgrade in ROM.

Although there are times that chaining behavior would be useful for us, you must remember that UEI didn't intend for the users of their remotes to upgrade them like we do, so they probaby didn't think of it, or if they did didn't feel it was worth the coding effort or additional code size.

BTW, the JP1 tools can only read/write the EEPROM. They can not access the ROM, so this is why there is no way to use the JP1 tools to extract the builtin device upgrades to use as a starting point for a more complete device upgrade.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Capn Trips wrote:
If a simplistic definition of "efficient" is "uses least memory - OF ANY KIND" then the likely best way to do this is:
(1) identify your partially-working built-in setup code;
(2) learn the and decode the few OEM buttons that are NOT covered by that setup code(now you have their EFCs);
(3) create keymoves calling on the setup code that works using these EFCs (and delete the previously-learned functions).

Unless we're talking about just a few buttons, this still isn't the most efficient use of ANY memory. Standard keymoves use 5 bytes each, whereas the buttons in an upgrade use up just 1 byte each. Of course, a few extra bytes of an upgrade are used up with the fixed data, etc but this is often ofset by the numeric buttons using up just one byte. For example, assuming that TV/0178 is indeed the correct code, I just created this KM file that replicates TV/0178, it contains 29 buttons and the upgrade uses up 27 bytes. If I were to add functions to this upgrade, they would each extend the upgrade by 1 byte, but if I were to use keymoves instead, they would each use up 5 bytes.

Now, that's assuming that all memory is equal, which of course it isn't. The upgrade memory is for no other purpose than upgrades, so as long as you have some memory left, you might as well use it. Most remotes, including the cat48 and Cat34, have 768 bytes of upgrade memory available, which means there would be room for over 20 upgrades of this size.

Most remotes have a little over 200 bytes of memory which is shared between keymoves and macros, this memory can hold a little over 40 keymoves if there are no macros, so the more keymoves you program the less macros you can use.

Then there's the learning memory. Most learning remotes have 1kb of memory set aside for learning, but even though that sounds like alot, it's only enough memory to hold between 25 and 30 learned signals. However, if you're not using an extender, this memory serves no other purpose and will be going to waste if you don't use it.

So, bottom line. If you're not using an extender and you have found a built in setup code that works most of the functions for your device and you just need to add a few buttons to it, learning is a very viable option, as you will be using memory that will otherwise be going to waste and you won't be wasting the keymove/macro or upgrade memory. But, unless you're a real hi-tech JP1 programmer who has added all sorts of special protocols, I doubt that you're using that much of your upgrade memory (if any) so you're best option is still to just create an upgrade.

In this case, using keymoves should be a last resort option as it will decrease the number of macros that you can program.
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Fixup



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 20
Location: OR

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes Rob, an full upgrade is the most efficient. For few learned keys, a partial upgrade is much easier. The only downside is that it must use keymover, but extender cures that. If I know the EFC codes for the missing keys, I can just use keymover.

Whompus, I tried to download my Vizio remote to IR, but got no response. The remote is the first on left.

This thing is so fun, only limited by your imagination and creativity.



Last edited by Fixup on Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Fixup



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 20
Location: OR

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 2:20 pm    Post subject: Summery for a partial upgrade Reply with quote

Thank all guys, here I would like to summerize a way for a partial upgrade with few learned keys:

1) The JP1 (learn capability not necessarily, e.g. 6131) has a build-in setup code, say 123, for a TV remote, but few keys are missing.

2) Learn these missing keys with an JP1 that can learn (e.g. 8811).

3) Download JP1 to IR with decoder to get the learned codes.

4) Use KM to creat an upgrade, device code 1123 (1000+123), define these learned functions for the learned codes (no need to assign buttons) and keymover them to TV's buttons.

5) Add a new device on IR and copy to it from KM. Import the keymover from KM into IR.

That's it, thank Whompus.
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 3:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Summery for a partial upgrade Reply with quote

Fixup wrote:
4) Use KM to creat an upgrade, device code 1123 (1000+123), define these learned functions for the learned codes (no need to assign buttons) and keymover them to TV's buttons.
If you're creating an upgrade, you should select the device mode that offers the most available buttons in the keymap. In KM you can see this on the Layout sheet. For example, in the 8811 VCR mode offers 36 buttons that can be used within an upgrade while Cable mode only offers 31.


Quote:
5) Add a new device on IR and copy to it from KM. Import the keymover from KM into IR.
This leads me to believe that you're creating key moves on the Key Moves sheet. As part of an upgrade, you should be assigning everything on the Buttons sheet and let KM create the key moves embedded in the upgrade code (button names that aren't part of the default key map are preceded with "@"). IR will create the appropriate key moves when the upgrade code is pasted into the Devices tab.
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Fixup



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
Posts: 20
Location: OR

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mark, we're talking about partial upgrade here, not a full one. The situation is:

1) the JP1 already has a build-in setup code, but few keys missing;
2) direct keymover does not work with learned codes;
3) learned buttons take up too much memory and some JP1s cannot learn;
4) for a full upgrade you need to learn all the buttons not just the few missed ones;
5) you cannot find or don't want to use an full upgrade file.


Last edited by Fixup on Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
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greenough1



Joined: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 659

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fixup,
I'm not sure why, but you're fighting this concept that Mark restates:
Quote:
This leads me to believe that you're creating key moves on the Key Moves sheet. As part of an upgrade, you should be assigning everything on the Buttons sheet and let KM create the key moves embedded in the upgrade code (button names that aren't part of the default key map are preceded with "@"). IR will create the appropriate key moves when the upgrade code is pasted into the Devices tab.


I think this is the central point that we keep going around and around on.

jeff
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Fixup



Joined: 24 Feb 2006
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jeff, this is a partial upgrade. The added device is virtual, the functions are keymovered to TV's real buttons. We have to go this route because direct keymover does not work with learned codes.
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whompus



Joined: 27 Apr 2005
Posts: 540

PostPosted: Sat Feb 25, 2006 4:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... That's the new vur4. I think it is a nice looking remote. It is still a uei remote just build around the internals of the x820 remotes I think.
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