JP1 Remotes

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

I just added an HDTiVo alongside my old style Directivo. The unit codes work fine but the HDTiVo is reluctant to respond to any of my one for all JP1 programmed remotes or even the OEM TiVo remotes. It works great with a Harmony remote. Any idea what magic goes on with the harmony to make it work? Are there any fine tuning capabilities to the protocol or is it the hardware?

The Robman · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:05 pm Post subject:

Wassup Cosmo? Is this really your first post?

I have no idea why the Harmony would work properly whereas the other remotes don't, but I have an idea what you can do to help us find out.

Do you have a JP1 learning remote in your collection? If so, try learning the signals from the Harmony when it's in Tivo mode then try using the learned signals in the JP1 remote to see if they perform as well as the Harmony.

If they do, post the resulting IR file here in the Diagnosis Area for us to look at (and post a link to it, so we don't have to search for it). We can probably tweek the Tivo protocol based on that file.
_________________
Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

Here is a link to the diagnosis file just look at the learned codes for the SAT device is my HDTiVo

Harmony tivo learned.ir

jon_armstrong · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 6:59 pm Post subject:

If Rob hasn't gotten to this, here's my analysis. It's One data frame and One null repeat frame only. I'm pretty sure that in an OFA remote (and probably the OEM remote), that the null repeat frame repeats as long as the button is held. All this assumes Cosmok learned with the technique of holding down the button on the Harmony until the OFA remote double blinked.

My theory is that the IR receiver in the gear is waiting for the frames to end before it executes. There are probably some keys like Channel+/-, Page Up/Down where you want repeat keys. Cosmok you could verify that by learning ch+/- .

The TiVo protocol is a derivitive of the NEC1 protocol that wants to see exactly 108 mSec frame lengths in both the data frame and the null repeat frame. The commands you posted have 108.3 mSec in every command for both frame types. Two of the commands have a second null repeat frame and a fragment.
_________________
-Jon

jon_armstrong · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:19 pm Post subject:

I just tested Cosmok's installed TiVo upgrade and the data frames are slightly longer 110 mSec and the null frame 109 mSec and the null frame does repeat as long as held.

I doubt that the longer frames are the cause so my original theory still looks good if they were learned the way I assume they were.
_________________
-Jon

jon_armstrong · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject:

You might test this protocol:

Upgrade protocol 0 = 00 41 (S3C8+)(PB v3.11)
43 8D 31 8B 12 CF 44 08 08 01 1A 01 06 01 1A 03
31 D7 42 11 A7 08 B7 08 05 76 85 04 6B 0B 56 85
E3 56 00 DF B0 0D E6 06 9D E4 06 05 60 06 46 06
F0 54 C0 06 F6 01 04 FB 09 F6 01 46 46 29 0D 8D
01 49 8D 01 46
End

It repeats for the repeating vol+/-, ch+/-, etc and doesn't for the rest of the keys. I even took out the null repeat frame since it has no data and to be recognized the first frame does it all.

Just delete protocol 0041 in the protocols tab and add this one in IR.

Here is the disassembly of what I did:

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

I tried the changed protocol -- It seems to work really well for the old Tivo so I think we are on the right track, Unfortunately the change for the HD was slight if at all.

I uploaded another file with more keys and some that repeat like FF

http://yahoo.groups.com/group/jp1/files/Diagnosis%20Area/Harmony%20tivo%20learned%202.ir

Thanks a ton for your help. As some additional background, this remote and the OEM remote seems to work better when its pointed below the IR receiver as crazy as that sounds.

See this thread for more background

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-176769.html

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

Forgot CH+/- in the last file, use this one please:

http://yahoo.groups.com/group/jp1/files/Diagnosis%20Area/Harmony%20tivo%20learned%203.ir

The Robman · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:53 pm Post subject:

Hey Cosmo,
When you use learned signals from the OFA remote, does the HD Tivo respond as well as if you were using the Harmony? Did this problem only start when you re-program the two Tivos to respond to seperate unit codes?

Btw, we have a new file section here now (see the link at the top of the page) which is easier to use than the Yahoo one.
_________________
Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!

jon_armstrong · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 9:55 pm Post subject:

Cosmok,

Read the sticky posts about posting to Yahoo files. Those links expire in a short time.

How does the new protocol work with the HDTiVo?
_________________
-Jon

jon_armstrong · Posted: Mon Feb 28, 2005 10:07 pm Post subject:

Rob, I borrowed heavily on your $005A annotated disassembly to make that change. Maybe we should try the data frame and one null repeat like the harmony was doing. I dont know what the call to 0149H does. I'm guessing the alternate leadout.
_________________
-Jon

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

The new protocol seems slightly better or the same. Unit codes have no impact. The OEM remote that came with unit is just as bad as the OFA remote. See the link to the TiVo forum in my prior post.

The Harmony remote works great for everyone but its difficult to use and program and is basically a overpriced hockey puck IMO.

Its also important to note that all my units are behind closed doors with the signals routed by xantech. All remotes are marginally better when sent directly to the IR window on the TiVo. I have a variety of xantech IR receivers none are better than any other in responding to the remotes. The harmony works well with any of them.

I also have an IRMAN (i think the spelling is right) that I can use to capture the IR from the harmony if you tell me what program to use and what file to capture or I can UPS the Harmony to you if you have a better tool to analyze.

I moved the latest file to this forum

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=1356

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

I forgot to answer, the learned codes on the OFA are better than the standard protocol but not as good as the harmony. The difference there appears to be hardware. The harmony seems to have a brighter broader IR dispersal pattern. I can point it at the wall away from the unit and it still works. I'm going to order an RF OFA remote and see if that helps.

Can the RF connect directly to Xantech or do I need to paste the sender to the window?

jon_armstrong · Posted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 9:38 am Post subject:

Cosmok,

The learned commands in the last link you posted work better than the OEM remote and the device upgrade with either of the TiVo protocols, right?

If so, all those commands have the classic NEC1 repeating null frame as long as the button is held. So my previous theory is probably all wrong.

I have an IRMan and I don't think it can tell us anything that the OFA learned signals can't. The OFA remotes are actually very good and accurate learning devices.

My new theory is either frame lengths or interference. I have seen a few devices using the NEC1 protocol (from which the TiVo is derived) that are incredibly picky about frame lengths. Those sorts of issues can easily be further distorted by IR distribution systems. It is also possible to get a multi-path signal and have two commands that are offset by some small fraction of time and confuse the IR receiver in the TiVo. I'm not sure RF will solve the problem and could add some new variables. But, much of this is "art" rather than "science."

It is also possible to get noise in an IR distribution system from lighting, plasma displays, and on and on. let me look at the commands in detail and I'll try tweaks to the timing in the protocol first.
_________________
-Jon

Cosmok · Joined: 28 Feb 2005 Posts: 9 Location: texas

Jon,

Thanks for your help. I sort of ruled out interference because, first other users are having the same problem, second no other devices are affected and third the harmony remote works fine. I can easily isolate this leg of the xantech system to limit potential interference and give it a try. I will also try the new protocol directly into the front of the HDTiVo.

The curious thing is that the original factory remote shows the same symptoms and that my other older TiVo that appears to use the same IR hardware is not affected. It is most likely a software problem on the DirecTV end with the HD box but their only solution is to swap boxes and remotes which doesn't solve my problem since I don't want their remote and my box is heavily "upgraded".