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learning remote (15-2116), and EFC's

 
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 3:50 pm    Post subject: learning remote (15-2116), and EFC's Reply with quote

i'm trying to get the efc's for my Philips LX 3500D home theatre (DVD/RCVR) device. I've attempted to learn from the OEM remote and then us IR to see the corresponding EFC. Sometimes this works and sometimes it doesn't, and also most of the time the learned command doesn't work (but not all of the time). I had previously learned about an issue with a "toggle bit" but still don't know what to do about it with the tools i have(15-2116. IR.exe, JP1).

I'm wondering now what would be the best course of action to find these last 10-12 commands for this device?
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The Robman
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003
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Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't worry about the learned commands not working, just make a note of the following items as displayed in IR.exe's Learned Signal's tab:

1) Protocol (eg, RC5, RC6, etc)
2) Device Code
3) OBC

Then use this info to build an upgrade using either the KM spreadsheet or the RM java program.
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Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i haven't worked with km yet so i'll try tomorrow. Just curious how could the remote learn a command that doesn't work on the device yet the info will be correct for km to use?
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Mark Pierson
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Joined: 03 Aug 2003
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Location: Connecticut, USA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philips typically uses the RC5 or RC6 protocols which have a toggle bit that goes between ON and OFF. Learning only captures one or the other which is why the signals won't work.
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 7:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

how come i wouldn't be able to enter the listed EFC from the learned command as an EFC in the keymove section just like the published adv codes? are the learned EFC's incorrect or just not relevant because the device doesn't recognize them?
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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Location: Bedford, MA

PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did I miss the protocols (RC5 vs. RC6 or RC5x etc.) and device number(s) in this or a related thread?

Without seeing those, I can only guess that this device uses more than one of those protocols and/or more than one device number.

The setup code may specify one or two (in a few protocols three) different device numbers. The EFC selects from within the given setup code. Even if it is the best setup code for the device, it might not cover all the protocols or device numbers of the device, so an EFC from a learned signal might not go with that setup code.

There are several ways of dealing with a mix of device numbers (or protocols). Assuming that's the problem, tell us which protocols and device numbers you found in the learned signals and how many commands use each device number. Then we can tell you the easiest way to get it right.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2003 10:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The bottom line is this, in order to use an EFC you first need to find a working setup code. You can't just enter EFCs into thin air. If that were possible there would only be 256 commands to be shared by all the devices in the world.

Furthermore, EFCs get a little bit more complicated with RC5 (assuming that's one of the protocols in question) because it's qhat we call a quickie combo protocol. So, while the OBC is constant, the EFC varies depending on how the setup code was set up.

So, the easiest approach really will be to tabulate the info displayed by IR and build an upgrade for it.

If you find that you are seeing a mix of RC5 and RC6 protocols, along with an assortment of device codes, post your findings here and one of us will advise you on the best way to set this up.
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was able to "learn" all of the commands except the 4 arrow keys (errored every time) and i believe most had listed protocols of RC5 or RC6. The up and down arrow commands wher found on the channel buttons of device 1089 as well as a few of the commands learned in. As i said earlier not all of the learned commands actually worked on the device. It seemed like, but i didn't confirm, that the ones that worked had RC6 as their protocol
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 8:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the best next step is to save an eeprom image file from IR.EXE including several learned signals, including the ones you have trouble with. Upload that file to the diagnosis folder in the Yahoo group so we can look at the signals ourselves.

Maybe the toggle bit is the full explanation for why some learned commands didn't work (and that will be solved once you convert to KeyMoves or upgrades). Maybe something more is wrong. We can tell by looking at those learned signals.

If you have enough learned signal there for us to see a representitive sample, that may also answer the question about the mix of protocols and device numbers (which you don't seem to answering). I understand there may be some garbage "gap" or even "jvc" or other decodes mixed in with the valid decodes, so it may not have been clear to you what was requested when we asked about protocols and device numbers. We're fairly sure that only the various RC protocols are used by the real device, so any "gap" etc. decodes should be ignored.

Combining protocols and device numbers is possible in several different ways, so we want more information to try to estimate which way will work best for you.
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
Posts: 23

PostPosted: Fri Oct 24, 2003 9:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

its at "prelim Philips LX 3500D (learned signals from 15-2116).txt"

some of the EFC's that work are as follows:
from DVD 0539
187-disc
132-disc menu
058-system menu
139-stop
051-play
also from DVD 0539 the rew-play-ffwd buttons work as is
from RCVR 1089 the -CH = up arrow, +CH = dn arrow, #2 = tuner, & #9 = aux

the learned #key signals in the file are:
1-tv/av
2-disc
3-tuner
4-aux
5-surround
6-sound
7-night

there are few other keys to learn in such as the sleep button & the individual surround sound volume controls
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 25, 2003 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is a reorganization of what you have posted and where to find the commands:

RC6 commands-

OBC EFC
015 058 RC6 Device=04 system menu
032 019 RC6 Device=04 ffwd*
033 011 RC6 Device=04 rew*
044 051 RC6 Device=04 play *
049 139 RC6 Device=04 stop *
063 187 RC6 Device=04 disc
209 132 RC6 Device=04 disc menu

* Commands on those buttons in DVD_0539

RC5 Commands-

OBC HEX
056 1F 1C RC5 Device=00 1-tv/av
013 0F C8 RC5 Device=16 mute**
016 0F BC RC5 Device=16 vol+**
017 0F B8 RC5 Device=16 vol -**
062 0F 04 RC5 Device=16 7-night
064 4F FC RC5 Device=16 5-surround
079 4F C0 RC5 Device=16 6-sound
063 0E 00 RC5 Device=17 3-tuner **#2
063 0A 00 RC5 Device=21 4-aux **#9
032 0E 7C RC5 Device=17 Ch+**
033 0E 78 RC5 Device=17 Ch-**

** Commands in AUDIO_1189 (not 1089), # button if not the same as name


To calculate hex for RC5 commands since AUDIO_1189 is a two byte protocol:

For OBC's <64

First byte = decimal 31-device and convert to hex
Second byte = decimal (63-OBC) X 4 and convert to hex

if OBC>63
First Byte=decimal 95-device and convert to hex
Second Byte=(127- OBC) X 4 and convert to hex

Example:

Device 16 OBC=79 (6-sound)

95-16=79=>0x 4F
48 x 4= 192 => 0x C0

Key Move using hex: 4F C0

Put a space between the bytes and each byte should have two characters.

As far as how to proceed; if you want one device for everything., I would key move the commands that you need to AUDIO_1189. I would also try all the keys in AUDIO_1189 and see if you pick up any functionality.

You mentioned twelve more commands, what are they or learn them and post again using a different file name and let us know.
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BritNerd



Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 29
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

flipwood,

I am currently trying to get my Philips MX3660D setup running, and it seems to use a lot of RC5 and RC6 codes in common with your system. My original Philips remote has 45 keys and is labelled "RC19245008/01" inside the battery compartment .. is yours the same?

See http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=224 for the thread that I'm currently posting to
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BritNerd



Joined: 10 Oct 2003
Posts: 29
Location: Huntsville, Alabama

PostPosted: Sun Oct 26, 2003 12:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some of the missing keys you might need are:
OBC Dev HEX 1
100 16 4F 6C subw +
101 16 4F 68 subw -
65 16 4F F8 rear +
66 16 4F F4 rear -
102 16 4F 64 center +
103 16 4F 60 center -
16 0 1F BC tv vol +
17 0 1F B8 tv vol -
79 16 4F C0 sound
62 16 0F 04 night

I can't capture/learn the REPEAT or REPEAT A-B keys at all (meaning I can't even capture a signal, let alone capture a 'bad' signal). I never use them anyway, but this might be an issue for some people.
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flipwood



Joined: 14 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

i've put the latest incarnation up in "prelim Philips LX 3500D (learned signals from 15-2116).txt" in this one most commands are either supported by EFC's in device 0539 or learned under the same, with the only exception being the tuner and aux buttons which are supported under device 1189.

To answer britnerd, yes, that is number on my remote and the commands you listed are the only remaining functions required.

i'm now going to try to make a upgrade so as to be able to utilize the extender functions (no learned commands allowed, right?). Are there any suggestions on what to do since i have 2 protocols and 2 devices to get into one upgrade or should i just make 2 upgrades?

Also i have not been able to find any of the discrete on/off's from my philips TV (46pp9302), all of the ones i've found listed so far don't work and i also didn't find any by manually inputting 0-255 EFC's. So i'm guessing there aren't any? As it stands right now if i turn the rcvr/dvd on first then when i turn on the TV it turns off the rcvr/dvd
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 27, 2003 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

flipwood wrote:

i'm now going to try to make a upgrade so as to be able to utilize the extender functions (no learned commands allowed, right?). Are there any suggestions on what to do since i have 2 protocols and 2 devices to get into one upgrade or should i just make 2 upgrades?


You might want to start by making two upgrades just to reduce confusion in the later steps. After that, there are two basic approaches to combining things:

1) Create a device combiner upgrade. In doing so, you must give it the hex id and the hex fixed data that would have been used for each upgrade if they were seperate upgrades (that's one reason to create them first as seperate upgrades).
On the Functions sheet, you put the EFC of each command and you select (in the byte2 column) whether each command uses the first or second protocol/fixed data. In mini combo protocols, such as RC5, the EFC from the decoder may be ambiguous. You want the EFC for each function as if it were in a seperate upgrade (another reason it's simpler to first create those seperate upgrades).
The device combiner definition process uses data from the process of creating the seperate upgrades. It does not use the seperate upgrades themselves. If you loaded them into the remote (for testing etc.) you can delete them.

2) Alternately, you could use one of the seperate upgrades as your upgrade, and use KeyMoves for each function of the other. If the remote already has a setup code for that second protocol/device you can use that for the KeyMoves. Otherwise, make and load the seperate upgrade for it, but you should leave the buttons sheet of that upgrade blank to save memory in the remote.

If you use the second (lots of KeyMoves) approach, I strongly recommend RemoteMaster rather than KM. RM's external functions sheet ties to its buttons sheet in a way that is very intuitive for this sort of situation. It lets your upgrade definition more clearly manage the association of all named functions to all buttons, rather than getting you bogged down in the KeyMove vs. upgrade aspects of it. That's especially helpful when you give the whole thing to someone else who wants to change your function to button choices.
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