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15-1994 Extender Question
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 12:59 pm    Post subject: 15-1994 Extender Question Reply with quote

I am trying to re-build my 15-1994 setup using the 15-1994ex5_1 extender and I've hit a snag. I have a couple of macros that include a device multiplexor command, and this works in the regular setup, but doesn't work when I use the extender. Is this a known issue, and if so, is there a work around?

I can post files later if that will help.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 2:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have not heard of the issue. The 7800 cinema 7 extender 5 is a direct pott of John's extender and I didn't hear of any issues. Of course I wrote my exteder the 7800 was already obsolete so there really was only Elizabeth who pushed the limits.

One thing to beware of with old remotes is loose batteries. I had a lot of issues with the batteries losing connection and disabling my extender when running macros. A little light weight foam solved that problem

Seems to me you were not using extenders before. Beware this may reinfect you with jp1 fever. That is how I got hooked after having kicked the jp1 habit!

Post your files.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 05, 2015 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the "before" file:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13526

Here's the extender:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13527

The macro in question is on the VCR 2S button. It's a Device Specific Macro that invokes the macro on the phantom2 button, and the last step is SHIFT-2S which is a Multiplexor.

I did try it using regular macros, in case the DSM was part of the problem, but that didn't work either. I have found another way to tackle the problem, but I just did this post to see if it really is a problem and it's known.

And yeah, I haven't tried the extender before now because I knew it would be a lot of work to re-configure and I was right, but I think I've got the extender version close. I am away from home right now so can't test it, but here's the (possibly) finished version:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13528

And here's how long it's been since I messed with remotes, in order to finish the non-extender profile, I had to convert some of the keymoves to learned signals, and I couldn't remember the 9xx command for learning.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 3:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah a file is worth a million words

Here is the macro that is not functioning
16 Phantom2:=X_VCR;Swap;Menu;X_TV;1;4;VCR;Move;SHIFT-2s switch to VCR1

The problem is the VCR button doesn't switch to VCR, you are still in X_TV mode, so the Move and Shift-2s are not executing. You need to change that issue a X_Cancel or a X_VCR before the Move command.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 6:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some other tips:

Since a DSM is essentially a Keymove, you can have DSM on the same key as a Macro and it will override the macro if the remote is in the right O_dev mode.

When I want to stack commands on Shifted keys, I usually put them on the X_Shift instead, and then instead of pressing the setup key, I access them with Long Key Presses. Of course some remotes don't have that horribly hard to press recessed key, but LKP even helps when the setup key stand proud!

For example I always stack Closed Captions on Mute.
Mute:=
Short Press:= Shift Mute (shift cloaking for regular Mute function)
Long Press:= Xshift Mute (macro or discrete necessary to access CC on given setup)
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and did I mention that although nesting macros and calling macros from other macros can result in an infinite loop, looping macros can be very very helpful as long as you have a way of terminating the macro. I use this in solving input selection and screen ratio if there is no discrete available.



Quote:
And here's how long it's been since I messed with remotes, in order to finish the non-extender profile, I had to convert some of the keymoves to learned signals, and I couldn't remember the 9xx command for learning.


You probably forgot more than I ever knew. lol.

I remember that feeling. I had struggled so hard to get a tenuous grasp on the whole JP1 concept the first time. Then I went MIA until I got new equipment and needed to use an extender to get in the necessary macros and keymoves. What a slippery slope. It was my misfortune to become so addicted that I actually had to write an extender to benefit my favorite remote, and then Elizabeth took me on that eye opening journey showing me what a remote could do! Heck I had "written" an extender, and still had no idea of what it could do for me, until Elizabeth started posting sample files.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The VCR button executes a macro that includes all the other _VCR commands, so are you saying that those don't override the X_ commands?
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vickyg2003 wrote:
You probably forgot more than I ever knew. lol.
I have forgotten more than I still remember. It's been nearly 2 years since I've messed with remotes in any way, and the only reason I'm doing it now is because I have a new device that I need to include in the remote.

Without the extender, I have enough upgrade memory but am maxed out on keymove/macro memory, and I am limited in how many keymoves I can convert into learned signals because of the bug in the remote that prevents learned commands from working in device modes that use a protocol upgrade, and 3 of my device modes have protocol upgrades.

So, for the extender version I had to take a new strategy where I used built in codes as much as possible and then used keymoves to fix them, rather than use upgrades. I eliminated the device combiner that I was using to combine my Sony CD player with my Sherwood receiver, and just programmed the CD player to the CD button and used keymoves to program the Sherwood buttons. And even with all that scaling down, I still only have 20 bytes of upgrade memory left.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't test this yet, but here is my updated extender file, using X_VCR instead of VCR
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13529
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 06, 2015 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
The VCR button executes a macro that includes all the other _VCR commands, so are you saying that those don't override the X_ commands?


Yes, the X_ is in effect until it is canceled or the macro ends and takes trumps and _VCR command .

You can cancel it by issueing an X_Cancel or another X_dev command.

The X_ commands are great for macros that you don't want to change the dev state of the remote.

Quote:
I can't test this yet, but here is my updated extender file, using X_VCR instead of VCR
I can't look as I'm on my phone, but you probably want both the X_VCR AND the VCR command in the macro, since you want to be in VCR mode when you exit the macro.

Your reasons for starting with the extender are the exact same as mine. I got new equipment and ran out of keymove macro space. I bought a new remote but that didn't have any more keymove macro space. I was desperate. Had I known how much these would help in making a user friendly remote I would have ventured in earlier. But I was scared of extenders. Everybody up here was so smart, and they all talked in a language I didn't understand. . . Kind of like now, I haven't bought into the new technology, and so I am losing touch with what everybody is talking about. Even following every thread, I'm just lost.
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Remember to provide feedback to let us know how the problem was solved and share your upgrades.

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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 9:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I may pitch in...
Rob,
For me the most difficult part in extenders has always been the device issue.
Which device am I talking to now type of thing.
For constructing/debugging macros, I find IRScope and Tommy's widget indispensible.
Just open IRScope next to IR screen, record a macro and watch the protocols and hex values the remote spits out.
All device errors jump out right away.
If you have any long pauses in a macro, you may exceed the 15sec limit of IRScope, so make'm as short as you can get away with, or remove completely for the debugging session..

Your file should, but does not load into RMIR.
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Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's my current version Liz:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13577

I have used ToadTog to make discrete codes for everything that needed it, and I even used it to control the inputs on my TV, which was a lot more tricky.

I also use the ReplayTV special protocol for dynamic unit code selection, so that have that display properly you will need to add Replay_Sel=01FA to the [SpecialProtocols] section of the RDF.

Here's how you use my remote:
shift-CBL = watch Replay1 (use 2S and 3S to switch between them)
shift-SLEEP = watch Replay2
shift-VCR = watch VCR1 or 2 (use 2S and 3S to switch between them)
shift-AUX1 = watch the Blu Ray
shift-AUX2 = watch DVD1 or DVD2 (use 2S and 3S to switch between them)
shift-CD = listen to CDs

shift-POWER = turn everything off
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 7:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Rob, I took a brief look at your IR file. I see that you don't use MY favorite function, the LKP, at all. I use a lot of LKPs. I use LKPs so that you don't have to press the SET/SETUP key, since on most of my remotes it is recessed or not in a convenient location. So typically the last step in my device selection macros is the LKP that fixes all the inputs.

I also see that you don't use XShift at all. I use Xshift a lot more than I use Shift, mainly because nobody ever has to actually press the Shift key in my house. Way too complicated for the DH. He has all he can do to press and hold the CBL button or the DVR button to get the inputs to be setup correctly for viewing. If he had to find the SET key on all the remotes, I think I would be very frustrated! Laughing Heck he lives on the jump button, but when I tell him to press the jump button, he can't find it because sometimes it says Last, sometimes it says Prev. Rolling Eyes

I think if you are going to do Shift keys to start Replay1 you might make it easier to go xshift to get to replay2 would be more intuitive.

On regular keys I typically use Shift keys for shift cloaking and then use XShift for the functions I need in my LKP.

Another thing to think about, is that for most extenders (I'm not sure about JP1.3 extenders), use the LKM heirarchy that is built in to the remote, so you can have a keymove override a macro in a given mode.

If I were you, I'd think about adding LKPs and Xshifts into this setup, so you get more of a feel for what your extender can do for you.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 8:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have thought about experimenting with LKPs but one factor to keep in mind is that, even though I rebuilt the remote from scratch, the remote itself has been in use for many years, so my user base (ie, the family) is totally used to doing P-CBL for Replay, etc so if I converted them to LKPs, I would have to re-train my users.

Also, the 15-1994 has the best SETUP button of all remotes, it's a different color (it's the green P button) and it's the same height as the regular buttons.

I do have lots of XSHIFT functions programmed, I just don't have an XSHIFT button.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2015 10:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
I have thought about experimenting with LKPs but one factor to keep in mind is that, even though I rebuilt the remote from scratch, the remote itself has been in use for many years, so my user base (ie, the family) is totally used to doing P-CBL for Replay, etc so if I converted them to LKPs, I would have to re-train my users.

Yeah, at first I was happy just to have ONE remote again when I got the extender installed in the 8811, but that was a new remote for me, so training was going to be required no matter what, so I did a little experimenting and fell in love. And still I was underemploying the extender, I just didn't know it.


My remote of choice had that crude extender without the special protocols or xshift. Since Elizabeth was also using the Cinema7, she coerced me into adapting the 1994 extender that you are using to the Cinema 7 and became my partner in crime, lol. Working with Elizabeth's test files taught me so much! When properly configured the with the extenders tools, using the remote is so much more intuitive. I use an extender on even my simplest setups now.


Quote:

Also, the 15-1994 has the best SETUP button of all remotes, it's a different color (it's the green P button) and it's the same height as the regular buttons.


That sure makes it a lot easier, but its still two key presses.

Quote:

I do have lots of XSHIFT functions programmed, I just don't have an XSHIFT button.


:Lol: that would be the double P, not to be confused with the ALT shift button which is an accessibility function .

I notice that you haven't altered your courtesy macros to simulate punch through either.

Really play with this, you won't be sorry. There is a lot to be gained out of JP1 when you embrace the extender. It seems that extender use really has fallen out of favor. Only the hard core users talk about them, and there really is not a good tutorial, because everyone's needs are unique.

Extenders Rock!
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