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Help with pause using common extender 3.02
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:59 pm    Post subject: Help with pause using common extender 3.02 Reply with quote

Hi all,

I'm continuing with my Atlas OCAP project, and, after some initial troubles with the rdf file for common extender 3.02, I've made pretty good progress.

After getting the extender to load, I set up the remote with the global macro delay set to 50 (range is 1 to 255) and verified that everything seems to work correctly. That delay is too much, so I set about fine-tuning things, and decided a few well-placed pauses would do the trick. Alas, I can't get the pause protocol to work at all. As an example, I put three three-second pauses in one macro and the whole thing executes in about two seconds. On that basis I conclude that the pauses are not working.

I'm still pretty much a novice and would not be surprised if I've done something wrong.

My rmir file is here: http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13106

I'd appreciate any help.

Thanks!

Ed
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done some further research on this and thought I'd include my results in case any of the experts has a chance to have a look at this, or in case anyone else is trying to make an Atlas remote do similar things.

I could not get pause to work at all using common extender 3.02, but, as I said, the global macro delay did work. That slowed my macros down sufficiently to allow me to verify that they were working.

I tried v2.13 of the Atlas extender. I was able to get pause to work, but only in a very simple macro which, perhaps coincidentally, did not have any "pressable" keys. It did not work anywhere else I needed it to work.

Then I tried v2.11 of the Atlas extender. Pause worked wherever I needed it using this version, but I noticed that, when I used buttonF1 for a LKP, it would not fire the short side. When I switched to Phantom9 for the LKP, the short side fired but the long side would not. LKP worked fine in common extender 3.02 using buttonF1.

The biggest reason I need an extender is I'm using a ToadTog to simulate discrete on and off for my TV. Moreover, I need pauses because my devices can't respond as fast as the remote fires signals. On the basis of my results, I've concluded that if I want to use the Atlas OCAP remote, I need to use common extender 3.02 with a global pause.

Now, I happen to have a spare RCRP05B, and I know I can make it work to do all the things I want it to do, so I might just switch to that remote, but I really wish I could make the Atlas work. I know lots of folks here have, and I suspect I'm making novice mistakes. Regardless, I'm enjoying the challenge of trying to make it work.

Thanks for any assistance.

Ed
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Thu Jan 29, 2015 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm still puttering with pause over here and had another result I thought was sufficiently interesting to share.

I added a simple macro to the .rmir file I posted above that simply switches back and forth between two devices, lighting the LEDs on the remote, so I could determine if pause was working. That macro is defined on the DVD key and is as follows: Dev_CBL; DiscreteOn; Dev_TV; Phantom3; DiscreteOn; Dev_CBL; DiscreteOn; Dev_TV; Phantom3; DiscreteOn; Dev_CBL, where Phantom3 is defined for the TV device as a 3-second pause. For my test, I set the global macro delay to 1.

I discovered that if I short press DVD to invoke the macro, the pause did not work, but when I accidently long-pressed DVD, pause worked, but was interrupted if I released the DVD key before the macro was finished. I have no LKPs defined for any key on the DVD device.

As always, I appreciate any help.

Ed
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ElizabethD
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Joined: 09 Feb 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,
I only have extender 2.11 so can't figure out the file I downloaded. So take all my comments with a huge grain of salt.
My pause protocol is a device upgrade from KM. I don't know what yours is.
Even with some guessing, I see something odd - you have defined ToadTog(1) twice for TV. Doesn't seem correct. I'd change one of those pairs to ToadTog(2).
Also when I open device editor - it seems something there is for Atlas 1055 not 1056, but I'm so unfamiliar with RMIR that can't really tell.
I use different logic than yours on short vs long side of LKP so that adds to me not understanding your file Sad and if short press sets up synchronization, that might also affect how your LKP functions.
There's xshift-day used but I can't find its definition - I suspect it's your pause.

You need to send pause after a command that sends a signal, not before, check that that is what you're doing.
Your sequence is "Dev_TV; Phantom3; DiscreteOn;". Just do Phantom3(pause) after DiscreteOn. Might help.
I do shift-power, pause, somethingElse, pause to a slow tuner assigned to CBL, like this:
CBL DiscreteOn ToadTog(2,ForceOn) [Already On]:< Blank > [Off->On]:SHIFT-POWER;SHIFT-7;GUIDE
CBL DiscreteOff ToadTog(2,ForceOff) [On->Off]:SHIFT-POWER;SHIFT-7;GUIDE;SHIFT-7;GUIDE [Already Off]:< Blank >
where Guide is brightness of display, and shift-7 is a 2sec pause.

There are couple threads here about the built-in pause so check'm out.
As far as you releasing a key stops a pause - I believe that is the very design people asked for (interruptable pause).
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for jumping in to help, Liz.

Here are my questions and comments on your feedback:

Quote:
My pause protocol is a device upgrade from KM. I don't know what yours is.


The pause protocol I'm using is the one packaged with common extender 3.02. Beyond that, I'm not sure where it comes from. Maybe there is another one I should be using instead?

Quote:
Even with some guessing, I see something odd - you have defined ToadTog(1) twice for TV.


The reasoning behind defining ToadTog(1) twice for the TV is to provide a "presssable" key I can use in case the remote state, for toggle 1, gets out of synch with the TV state; i.e., if the TV is off and the remote thinks it's on, I need a way to force toggle 1 to be "off", otherwise my macros won't work. In my case, PIP Ch+ forces toggle 1 on and PIP Ch- forces toggle 1 off. I thought I read somewhere that this is a pretty standard approach to using ToadTogs. Maybe there's something I'm missing?

Quote:
Also when I open device editor - it seems something there is for Atlas 1055 not 1056, but I'm so unfamiliar with RMIR that can't really tell.


I went to the "Devices" tab in RMIR, selected each device and clicked edit for each one. For each one, the edit window that comes up indicates the remote is "Atlas OCAP URC-1056 JP1.3 (Black) extender V3.02." Where are you seeing a reference to 1055? Sounds like that could be a problem. I tried to open my file with IR.exe (I created it with RMIR), and I got a raft of errors, so I couldn't use IR.exe to open it.

Quote:
I use different logic than yours on short vs long side of LKP so that adds to me not understanding your file


Regarding short-side, long-side on LKP: Awhile back when I was programming my RCRP05, I learned that if the "long side" contained an (interruptible) pause, then unless you released the long key press at exactly the right time, you ended up interrupting (and hence cancelling) the pause. The intent was to have key assignment to devices only on the short side and have that plus device I/O configuration on the long side. Since I couldn't get the pauses to work on the long side, I decided to put key assignment plus I/O on the short side and just key assignment on the long side. That led to another problem: The short side won't take more than 3 keys! So, I defined another macro to take care of I/O. I transferred this approach from the RCRP05 to the Atlas. Thus, in summary, the short side is intended to assign keys (actually done with Phantom1 before getting to the special function) and then assign I/O, with the macro defined on the shifted device key. I hope that makes sense!

Quote:
There's xshift-day used but I can't find its definition - I suspect it's your pause.


Where are you seeing xshift day? I didn't think I defined that key and it's not showing up in RMIR when I open the file.

Quote:
You need to send pause after a command that sends a signal, not before, check that that is what you're doing.


Will do. Thanks for the tip! The reason for the Dev_TV command before Phantom3 is that I wanted to ensure that the proper Phantom3 key is used; i.e., the one defined for the TV device.

I think I'm trying to use pauses like you do in your examples; perhaps if I ensure that I'm sending them after a command that sends a signal, I'll have more luck.

Quote:
As far as you releasing a key stops a pause - I believe that is the very design people asked for (interruptable pause).


My understanding (and experience -- see above) about interruptible pauses is that they're supposed to work almost exactly opposite to what's happening with my simple test macro. That is, a short press of DVD should not interrupt any of the pauses in that macro but that a long press likely would. In this case, I couldn't get pause to work at all unless I used a long press. Moreover, I didn't even have LKP defined for that key. Very strange, I thought.

I will try your suggestions involving placing pauses after commands that send signals instead of before and see what happens. Meanwhile, I'd appreciate any additional feedback you have on what I'm trying to do, in case it still doesn't make sense. Laughing

Thanks again, Liz!

Ed
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 6:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple quick updates.

First, I made a couple typos above. My pause is on TV, Phantom10, not Phantom 3. I have so many variations on this theme that I'm confusing myself.

Second, the Phantom1 and Phantom2 global macros are that set up the key assignments, not just Phantom1.

Finally, I took your advice, Liz, and re-arranged my pauses so they were always inserted right after a command that sent a signal. Unfortunately, no joy!

Ed
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the exact name of the RDF file you use? RMIR reports extender v3.02. Perhaps if I use your RDF, I'll see what you have.
Remember, I don't know which RDF to use, all I could do is see it via 2.11 and 2.13 you mentioned.
I realize DAY buttons might look odd when I use wrong RDF. It's number is, I think from looking at hex, $72. What exact button did you intend there, for instance in TV Phantom1, long side, which I see as xshift-Day1;shift-power.

If pause really not working, make a device in RM. It's a tiny piece of code.
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Liz,

Here is the file itself I'm using: http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=13122

The exact name of the file is 3X333X33 (Atlas OCAP URC-1056 JP1.3 (Black)_(Silver) extender V3.02)

I didn't put two and two together to realize that you didn't have my RDF.

Anyway, the RDF I'm using is the RDF packaged with extender 3.02 but corrected (by me) to remove offending spaces around equals signs (see this thread: http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15897 )

Quote:
I realize DAY buttons might look odd when I use wrong RDF. It's number is, I think from looking at hex, $72. What exact button did you intend there, for instance in TV Phantom1, long side, which I see as xshift-Day1;shift-power.


I'm not sure I understand your question. There is no $72 in my RDF file. All of my LKP special functions are blank on the long side. Phantom1 is a global macro for me that sets the volume keys to AUD and turns on the AUD device (my Sony receiver). (I guess you could say AUD is my "VPT" device.)

I see in RM where I can make a pause upgrade. I have to pick either the "extender" or the "special" version of the pause protocol from the drop down menu in RM to do that. I don't know which one to pick or how to go from there, but I guess I could experiment. I worried a bit that I could brick my remote if I picked the wrong option and uploaded it. I also wondered if one of these was actually the one packaged up with the extender, and reasoned that, if the packaged pause wouldn't work, why would this one. Again, if the risk is low, I can just try it. I guess I just delete the packaged device before I do this (TV 1104)?

Thanks again.

Ed
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No, do not even think about deleting tv/1104.
But yes, most likely Special will do what you need. I assigned my pause device to tv/0000 to avoid all those annlying unfilled devices Sad

I'm running some backups where jp1 is, so will take your rdf and stuff later.

$72 is my guess that it's a button number, but I forgot those details.

EDITED: Re "All of my LKP special functions are blank on the long side." - this is where I get lost. Why bother with LKP if you don't use the long side? Because of testing all those pause issues I guess (answering my own question)
EDIT 2: I just got your RDF file. $72 is Dev_TV in the RDF. Btw, your file extension is .txt, but I'll change it when the other computer is free.

Do you have IRwidget and IRscope program?
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
Posts: 116
Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Liz.

I'll try the special pause but I won't delete TV/1104!

You're right on the long side. Seems silly on the surface, but it actually works pretty well for me. I'm also thinking I could put the I/O on the long side, including pauses, if I use a macro over there, but I figure as long as it works, I'm not going to fix it.

Ah, I saved the single RDF while it was open in Notepad, that's why it's .txt. It's .rdf in my RDF directory. Incidentally, this file is distributed only through the extender package.

I don't have IRwidget or IRscope. They sound kind of scary <smiles>! I'll download them and have a look.

Ed
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 30, 2015 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,
I'm looking it over. One thing, which will not change your pause situation, is make yourself a TV ToadTog(2,Toggle) on (?) PIP-Move, with shift-power + pause on both sides and get rid of those PIP ch+ and ch-. IMO it'll do the same thing. Or maybe a Test only ToadTog. And I still maintain that your use of ToadTog(1) twice is not right.

I don't understand your TV macro which sets keysets then, via buttonF1, goes through the powering routine or parts thereof if power's on.

I think you need real expert help, not me. This is over my head. I doubt I can go on without wasting your time. Especially that your use of LKP is strange for me but works for you Smile
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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Ed



Joined: 21 Sep 2003
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Location: Dallas, TX

PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Liz,

I've lurked around here long enough to be pretty confident that you know orders of magnitude more about this stuff than I do, and I appreciate your help. Thank you!

I'm going to think about your suggestions on ToadTog. I'm not sure I understand them, whether they would accomplish what I'm trying to do, or perhaps whether I should be trying to do something else. In the meantime, I'll explain my situation a bit and what I'm trying to accomplish with the TV PIP+ and TV PIP- buttons.

I'm using ToadTog(1) to simulate the state of my TV, on or off, and to use the Off -> On and On -> Off commands to send Shift-Power to the TV to actually turn it on or off. My TV does not have discrete codes. The equipment I'm trying to control in this case is on my patio, and the Sony and dish receivers are placed on a high shelf, inaccessible without a ladder. The Sony IR receiver is in a bad spot, and if I don't point the remote directly at it, it doesn't "see" the commands I'm sending it. Moreover, electrical outlets are in short supply in this location, and I plug my TV into a switched outlet on the back of the Sony.

When I short press the TV or CBL button on the remote, one of the first things I do is send a DiscreteOn to the Sony. If the Sony comes on, the TV has power, so sending shift-power to the TV via ToadTog(1) will turn it on (if ToadTog(1) is off) and force ToadTog(1) on. If the receiver doesn't come on, then sending the shift-power to the TV does not turn the TV on but it does force ToadTog(1) on. Now, the next time I press TV or CBL, even if the Sony comes on, the TV won't, because ToadTog(1) thinks the TV is already on and won't send a shift-power. If this latter case occurs, I need a way to force ToadTog(1) off to match the known state of the TV. The way I've set it up, all this takes is a long press of TV, then PIP-. The next time I press TV or CBL, as long as I orient the remote so that the Sony "sees" the signal, the TV will come on. I'm thinking about ways to "fix" the orientation of the Sony IR receiver so this is less of a problem, but even if I do, until I get pause working properly, there will be cases where I fire a shift-power to the TV and it doesn't get it, in which case I'll need to "fix" ToadTog(1).

I don't understand how maniupulating ToadTog(2) would help me, perhaps because my understanding of ToadTog is incomplete. My understanding is that I need to put ToadTog(1) "right" if it gets out of synch, and changing ToadTog(2) has no effect on ToadTog(1).

Regarding my TV macro, I really thought my approach to that was pretty elegant <laughing>, but, based on your feedback, it sounds like I've overcomplicated things. For completeness, when I short-press TV, I want the following to happen: set volume keys to AUD, turn receiver on, set all keys except volume to TV, set input on the receiver for the TV, turn the TV on, set the TV input to ANT, etc. When I long-press TV, I want the volume keys to be set to AUD and all other keys set to TV, and that's it. As noted above, I use this a lot while I putter with pause and get ToadTog(1) set right. I've tried to nest macros and special functions so that the resulting code is compact, but maybe it's too compact to be understandable? I can say that it works as designed, and if I could pause working, I'd be really happy. I will say that when I tried this macro structure with extender 2.11, all kinds of weird stuff happened (see one of my previous posts in this thread), so maybe the common extender processes the nested macros and functions I've built differently from 2.11? I suppose we need expert help for that.

Back to pause. I attempted to install the special pause protocol and noticed that it was the same upgrade as TV/1104, which is packaged with the extender; i.e., it's already installed. (I looked at the "Output" tab of RM for device 1104 and noted that the device upgrade code there was exactly the same as the one installed for pause (special)). That suggests I don't need to install it again. Maybe to effect a pause I could build a key move on TV/1104? That effectively bypasses RMIR's functionality. I think I'll try that and report back.

I appreciate your insight, Liz. Thank you again!

Ed
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ElizabethD
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ed,
Take a look at Capn Trips answers here:
a toadtog question http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=6486&sid=c095fd94f27431469523ca86178e3d15
it may give you some ideas.

Re: "... If this latter case occurs, I need a way to force ToadTog(1) off to match the known state of the TV."
A toggle toadTog bound to TV will do what you need. It does it for me Smile
I wrote earlier ToadTod(2, toggle). That wasn't right because your TV toadTogs are 1. Just do Tv ToadTog(1,Toggle) and shift-power both sides.
But still doesn't answer your pause question. And yes, built in pause and upgrade pause sure look identical. I never know why. Where are the experts???

I live in one of those houses built when electricity wasn't popular (rare outlets and not where needed). I feel your pain.
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Liz
Tweeking 8910, HTPro/9811, C7-7800, 6131o, 6131n, AtlasOCAP-1056B01, RCA-RCRP05B and enjoying the ride Smile
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not sure what's going on with Pause. If you still have a problem, I can post a file you can try.

The Discrete on / off toadtogs in your original files look fine as is. I've never needed any kind of sync like your have on Pip+/-. If it ever gets out of sync, just press TV Power and it will be back in sync without having to reset anything.
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Ed



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PostPosted: Sat Jan 31, 2015 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Dave and Liz.

If I ever get things straightened out with pause, I don't expect to have to re-synch ToadTog much, and I agree, sending a power toggle to the TV will straighten it out. The reason I coded up the "re-synching" buttons is that if I use them, I can re-run the macro I use for watching TV, which does more than just power the TV on. Regardless, I don't think that's a big deal for me.

I still can't get pause to work. I actually tried a keymove on TV/1104 and I got the weird result that if I long-pressed the macro key that contained the pause, the pause worked, but it would not with a short press. Moreover, in that case, the long-press that I had specifically defined for that key did not work as intended; i.e., the pause worked instead. I suspect something is going on between the pause and LKP protocols. Maybe it's an RDF issue, maybe an extender issue, I'll have to wait for further expert advice.

I fiddled around and re-constructed my macros and special functions and ended up using a phantom key instead of buttonF1 for the LKP and I got pause to work for one case. That makes me think I shouldn't use buttonF1, but I'm just guessing.

I'd like to have a look at your file Dave. Thanks in advance!

Ed
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