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JVC HR-XVC1U VCR/DVD Combo, Discrete Power?
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 1:12 pm    Post subject: JVC HR-XVC1U VCR/DVD Combo, Discrete Power? Reply with quote

I have not been successful in a search for discrete Power on/off for a JVC XVC1U VCR/DVD Combo, using a 2117 remote. The "general" JVC discrete codes (device 67, EFC 248 for ON; 67/247 for OFF) do not work for me, does anybody have any information on what, if any, codes may work for this device.

Also, it could be that I don't know what 2117 double byte hex codes to enter (if required for this device) into IR.exe. I'm not really sure when to enter double byte codes and when not to, and how to determine what the second hex byte should be. It seems I needed to for my Pioneer SX45 Receiver, but didn’t need to for my Proscan TV.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What setup code are you trying these EFCs with?
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
What setup code are you trying these EFCs with?


I have tired 0067 & 0041. Using 0067, I can get the toggle power to work fine (EFC 59) and all other functions seem to work Ok. I have 4 other JVC vcrs (VCR only, not combo) and all respond to the to the general discrete power on/off. I'm beginning to think there may not be a discrete for this model. Is that really likely?
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 01, 2004 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You might try the classic workaround. If a Play or Eject command will turn the unit On from Off, then a macro for Play|Stop is On and Play|Power Toggle is Off.
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_armstrong wrote:
... classic workaround. If a Play or Eject command will turn the unit On from Off, then a macro for Play|Stop is On and Play|Power Toggle is Off.


Thanks for the tip Jon. This device is certainly a weird duck. It seems to have no tape eject command either, just a separate button to Open/Close the DVD drawer.. which WILL power ON the device from off. Of course it also opens the DVD drawer as well. Play does NOT turn on the unit. So.. in the same vein, a viable workaround for this device may be "eject, {delay} eject" for ON, and "eject, {delay} toggle power" for OFF. The delays need to be relatively long. Like 2 - 3 seconds. The delay for the On is needed to cancel the drawer from opening. Without some kind of delay it seems to ignore the second command in each case. Any thoughts on how to generate a controlled delay?

I'm beginning to think it may be easier to just replace the device. Are all combo devices this difficult, or just the (low end) JVC's?
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you tried the long winded approach of testing all 256 EFCs to see if there are any undocumented functions?
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some things to try. You might try a macro (if you haven't already) for two eject commands with minimum interval (you'll need an extender to get fast macros). I have heard of people using two eject commands in quick succession where it never opened and acted as a power On. Also have you tried pointing th 2117 directly at the VCR/DVD rather than use the RF repeater feature? I seem to recall that the RF repeater executes commands with a delay.

I also agree with Rob's suggestion, but I would learn all the OEM remote buttons first and look for an alternate device. The JVC VCR 1 uses JVC:67 that coincedentally is VCR/0067 and it sounds like many of the commands may come from the VCR.

JVC DVD's use JVC:239 (DVD/0558). Usually, the VCR/DVD combo devices use commands from both the VCR device and the DVD device but I don't have any direct knowledge about the JVC's command structure. But if it does use two different device codes then you will need to search another 256 commands.

As far as replacing the DVD/VCR combo, I know that at least one model (and I think more) of the Sony VCR/DVD does not respond to discrete commands either. So it may be going to CC or BB with your 2117 and trying the various brands. I think the Sony does do the Play trick from Off, though.
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
Have you tried the long winded approach of testing all 256 EFCs to see if there are any undocumented functions?


No, I have to confess I haven't tried that yet. The only way I can think to do that is use IR Keymove to assign each key one of the hex codes, test the assigned keys then go back and do the next set. Is there another way?

Sure would be nice if there was some parameter driven transmit code for a TIRA or USB-UIRT (or similar) that would do that automatically. But.. I'm sure I'm missing something rather significant here that prevents that from being viable.
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 2:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_armstrong wrote:
You might try a macro (if you haven't already) for two eject commands with minimum interval (you'll need an extender to get fast macros).


Per your suggestion I tried the two command macro approach. Unfortunately it didn't work (reliably). Just not enough delay. On the power On, the eject takes too long to power up the device. The second eject is long gone (I even tried multiple ejects). For the eject/toggle power (OFF), it works fine if the unit is on. But if the device is Off, I have the same problem. The eject takes too long to power up the device and the toggle power is long gone.

Quote:
Also have you tried pointing the 2117 directly at the VCR/DVD rather than use the RF repeater feature? I seem to recall that the RF repeater executes commands with a delay.


I haven't been using the RF extender, although I did plug it in to do the tests above.

Quote:
I also agree with Rob's suggestion, but I would learn all the OEM remote buttons first and look for an alternate device.


Sounds painful, and it may come to that. Certainly a good suggestion. When I get my second PVR 250 tuner in my HTPC it will free up one of my conventional VCRs. So I will probably eliminate this VCR from the loop, using only the DVD player as backup to my HTPC DVD. That may be the easiest solution. Smile Lazy.. I know.

Quote:
The JVC VCR 1 uses JVC:67 that coincidentally is VCR/0067 and it sounds like many of the commands may come from the VCR.


Yes, almost all the VCR keys/codes are the same for the DVD. At least all those that map to each other.

Quote:
But if it does use two different device codes then you will need to search another 256 commands.


Double Ouch! Crying or Very sad You would think the manufacturers would be more helpful and publish the codes. But.. again I'm probably missing something here.

Quote:
As far as replacing the DVD/VCR combo, I know that at least one model (and I think more) of the Sony VCR/DVD does not respond to discrete commands either. So it may be going to CC or BB with your 2117 and trying the various brands.


I see. Loading the 2117 up on all the discrete ON/OFF commands I can find and then seeing which combos respond?

Jon, digressing a bit, a few months ago I was cranking up my Ocelot to automatically program all those VCRs. You helped me with GENIRDB. It was at that point that something came up whereby you suggested a JP1 remote and pointed me to this forum. I went out and bought my 2117. Of course I'm just now getting around to its programming, since in my case, it has more utility after adding my HTPC to my Home Entertainment gear. The point being, I bet if you had a nickel for every JP1 remote you've sold, you could buy Bill Gates. Very Happy Heck, I like this stuff so much I just order another one.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KBevo wrote:
The Robman wrote:
Have you tried the long winded approach of testing all 256 EFCs to see if there are any undocumented functions?

No, I have to confess I haven't tried that yet. The only way I can think to do that is use IR Keymove to assign each key one of the hex codes, test the assigned keys then go back and do the next set. Is there another way?

The old fashioned way was to use the SET+nnn method rather than programming the codes to actual buttons.

The more modern way is to create dummy device upgrades in KM that contain all the unaccounted for OBCs and then try them out to see what they do.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 02, 2004 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KBevo wrote:

Jon, digressing a bit, a few months ago I was cranking up my Ocelot to automatically program all those VCRs. You helped me with GENIRDB. It was at that point that something came up whereby you suggested a JP1 remote and pointed me to this forum. I went out and bought my 2117. Of course I'm just now getting around to its programming, since in my case, it has more utility after adding my HTPC to my Home Entertainment gear. The point being, I bet if you had a nickel for every JP1 remote you've sold, you could buy Bill Gates. Very Happy Heck, I like this stuff so much I just order another one.


Well this brings up a couple of possibilities. Use the Ocelot to test the commands. If you have the Protocol files that I created for JVC, you can use the GenIRDB auto generate capability to create all 256 commands.

Also if you have an SECU16 (not the SECU16IR) then there is a video sensor (plugs into the composite video out) that is a few $$ to build that can be sensed by one of the SECU16 inputs to see whether it is On. Alternately you could use a Powerflash module. This assumes that you are running at least your Ocelot 24x7.

I guess I have become a big advocate of JP1 remotes particularly when the HomeAutomation guys are going through contortions trying to make something work that I know can be done better (and a lot simpler) with an OFA remote.

BTW, does the Bevo in your screen name have any connection to UT at Austin?
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
The more modern way is to create dummy device upgrades in KM that contain all the unaccounted for OBCs and then try them out to see what they do.


Great tip Rob, as usual I couldn't see the trees for the forest. I already have an Access dB with all the JVC VCR codes in it. Should be relatively simple to determine from that, which ones are not represented and transfer them to KM. Thanks much. I'll get the hang of this stuff.. well, sooner or later. Rolling Eyes
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KBevo



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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_armstrong wrote:
Well this brings up a couple of possibilities. Use the Ocelot to test the commands. If you have the Protocol files that I created for JVC, you can use the GenIRDB auto generate capability to create all 256 commands.

Also if you have an SECU16 (not the SECU16IR) then there is a video sensor (plugs into the composite video out) that is a few $$ to build that can be sensed by one of the SECU16 inputs to see whether it is On. Alternately you could use a Powerflash module. This assumes that you are running at least your Ocelot 24x7.


Thanks Jon for the thoughts. Talking to you guys makes me realize how much my imagination is "tunnel" oriented. I actually thought of GenIRDB/Ocelot but concluded it would be too much work for a one shot test. I may rethink that, but certainly need to keep that resource in mind for future excursions of this kind.

I don't have the SECU16 (just the IR), but the video sensor may be a good excuse to buy one. Laughing Actually, when you mentioned "build", I realized I better focus on the Powerflash alternative. Smile But, yeah all my "stuff" runs 24X7.. whether it needs to or not. Since I wrote my own PVR/VCR TV scheduling interface (using XMLTV), I tend to not pay attention to program start/stop times, so 24X7 is necessary and certainly more convenient.

I'm not familiar with the Powerflash module's function but I will give it a search and see what it does. I may need to get back to you to better understand your thoughts on using it with my Power ON/OFF dilemma.

Quote:
I guess I have become a big advocate of JP1 remotes particularly when the Home Automation guys are going through contortions trying to make something work that I know can be done better (and a lot simpler) with an OFA remote.


I'm sure your right. I'm pretty much a novice on all this stuff and probably have the learning curve way out-of-order. I haven't explored using the JP1 remote for my HA stuff (I use Homeseer for HA/Ocelot IR control), but I find real value in it for controlling my HTPC. It may be just a mind-set thing, but I find it more natural to control my video (playback of DVD and TV recordings) via remote than by Keyboard/Mouse.

Interesting enough, I ordered a Pronto (TSU3000) Remote and got it last Friday. I was playing with it and found I had to press the screen buttons VERY hard to get them to respond. I ended up breaking the screen’s glass cover. I sent it in for repair the same day I received it. Very expensive opps! Anyway, I was thinking the Pronto would make the HA/HTPC/Home Entertainment integration easier, better, faster.. if and when it works like I thought it would. I’m now beginning to think maybe I should sell the Pronto and stick with JP1. Have any experience with Pronto remotes?

Quote:
BTW, does the Bevo in your screen name have any connection to UT at Austin?


Oh yes. I'm a big UT fan. My “other” passion is Fantasy Football and use BEVO as my moniker in most leagues, so using it for BB IDs became a natural extension. I live in Keller (Tx), hence the "K" to better ensure its unique. Do you have (state-of) Texas connections?
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 5:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

KBevo wrote:
I don't have the SECU16 (just the IR), but the video sensor may be a good excuse to buy one. Laughing Actually, when you mentioned "build", I realized I better focus on the Powerflash alternative. Smile But, yeah all my "stuff" runs 24X7.. whether it needs to or not. Since I wrote my own PVR/VCR TV scheduling interface (using XMLTV), I tend to not pay attention to program start/stop times, so 24X7 is necessary and certainly more convenient.

I'm not familiar with the Powerflash module's function but I will give it a search and see what it does. I may need to get back to you to better understand your thoughts on using it with my Power ON/OFF dilemma.


My writing wasn't very clear. You need to build the video sensor whether you use the SECU16 or PowerFlash. The PowerFlash (or SECU16) can detect a contact closure and the video sensor circuit closes a relay when video is present. It really is pretty simple, particularly if you can program a PVR with XML Smile Here is thelink

Quote:
I haven't explored using the JP1 remote for my HA stuff (I use Homeseer for HA/Ocelot IR control), but I find real value in it for controlling my HTPC. It may be just a mind-set thing, but I find it more natural to control my video (playback of DVD and TV recordings) via remote than by Keyboard/Mouse.


I started out that way, too. So. I'll belabor the subject a bit. My original Home Theater had voltage and video sensors for determining Off/On status for each piece of equipment and my projector was controlled by RS-232. I had a bunch of HomeSeer scripts and virtual devices. I actually have two SECU16's (now mostly unused) that sensed all the devices. Then I read about discrete commands...

Now, everything works off of a RS 15-1994 running extender 3. I have macros on the device buttons. For example TV turns on the receiver, sets the TV audio input, sets the TV to tuner.

shift-TV sets it to HDTV. Since the OTA tuner is in the DSS receiver, it sets the audio input to DSS, sets the DSS receiver to HD mode and DSS receiver's TV Tuner antenna to antenna A. It also sets a component video and audio switcher to the DSS receiver and sets the tuner to channel 48 (the local NBC HD channel). The reason for all this is that in the HD mode the screen goes blank if there is no HD signal.

I now control 11 devices with one 15-1994 (it has been as high as 13). At the end of each macro the vol+/- control the receiver, the Ch+/- and transport buttons (Play, FF, etc.) control the TV/DSS Receiver/HD PVR/ReplayTV/DVD as appropriate. I also trigger x10 commands for various HS events including lighting. So, you don't really have to choose one "system" over the other.

The beauty of OFA remotes is that they work very reliably and they are inexpensive. Every entertainment area of the house (Home Theater, Family Room TV, and Master Bedroom TV) all remotes are identical and work exactly the same way although they control very different equipment.

The extenders radically decrease the execution time of Macro's -- Compared to HS/Ocelot or even unextended OFA remotes it seems instantaneous! Extenders also effectively eliminate the limit on number of commands within a macro.

Quote:
Interesting enough, I ordered a Pronto (TSU3000) Remote and got it last Friday. I was playing with it and found I had to press the screen buttons VERY hard to get them to respond. I ended up breaking the screen’s glass cover. I sent it in for repair the same day I received it. Very expensive opps! Anyway, I was thinking the Pronto would make the HA/HTPC/Home Entertainment integration easier, better, faster.. if and when it works like I thought it would. I’m now beginning to think maybe I should sell the Pronto and stick with JP1. Have any experience with Pronto remotes?


No direct experience with Pronto's but like a number of others here I know the IR encoding scheme well and we shamelessly decode the vast library of ccf files from RC to program the OFA remotes.

From a technical perspective, I don't think there is anything that a TSU-3000 can do that we can't with an OFA remote other than something like control 100 devices. Even when I was controlling 13 devices, I still had used only about half of the 2K EEPROM. So I think remotes really come down to personal preferences. There are varying opinions here even between the larger OFA remotes and smaller ones even though they can do the same things.

I like the physical buttons and I know where they are located. My advice would be to try to program the 2117 to do what you want and see if you like it. Extenders really separate the physical buttons from any hard coded meaning. I'm sure there is some exception to this statement, but you can literally program any button to send out any command. You don't have to associate a device with a physical device button, even in a non-extended remote.

Quote:
I'm a big UT fan. My “other” passion is Fantasy Football and use BEVO as my moniker in most leagues, so using it for BB IDs became a natural extension. I live in Keller (Tx), hence the "K" to better ensure its unique. Do you have (state-of) Texas connections?


I grew up around Houston and did my undergrad work at UT. That was a "while" back -- let's put it this way, Darrell Royal was still the head coach Smile
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_armstrong wrote:
I grew up around Houston and did my undergrad work at UT. That was a "while" back -- let's put it this way, Darrell Royal was still the head coach Smile

and John F. Kennedy had just secured the Democratic nomination to run for President! Very Happy
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