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Motorola vip 1853 - need pronto hex
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ewjmulder



Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 3:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aha ok, thanks for explaining it even more clear. I did not understand yet that the demodulation of the receiver is a hardware build-in and is not affected by setting the IguanaIR option --set-carrier. So to really cleanly get a raw recording I should have a non-demodulating receiver that will not assume anything on the frequncy side, right?

I am willing to buy another piece of hardware to settle this once and for all. But please check my current understanding of the issue so see if that will indeed work out:
1. The Motorola VIP 1853 remote is using in a non-standard protocol that cannot be configured in non-raw mode in Lirc (or any other program?)
2. So to control the VIP 1853 we need raw recordings of the remote that comes with the device.
3. The VIP 1853 is using 56KHz which results in non-optimal recordings from 38KHz demodulating hardware (like IguanaIR)
4. Using the program IrScrutinizer and the IrToy piece of hardware, I will be able to make 'real raw' recordings of the VIP 1853 remote using my windows machine.
5. I can use these recordings to make a Lirc config file that will state the raw pulse/space intervals at the right frequency.
6. I can send these signals with Lirc through my IguanaIR, since Iguana sending hardware does support setting a different frequency.

Do you agree with the reasoning above?

So to summarize, can I buy the pre-assembled IrToy2 (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/usb-infrared-toy-v2-p-831.html?cPath=174) from here and without any other hardware or low level configuration use IrScrutinizer to record the signals I need?

I do like to play around with this to get it working, but it should preferrably not include too much tinkering or soldering, since my main skill is on the software side, not the hardware.

Thanks for helping out so far!

P.S. I am aware of OpenRemote and other projects that achieve similar goals to mine. But since I am a programmer and this is a hobby project, I do like to create most of the software myself. Smile
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Barf
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Joined: 24 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ewjmulder wrote:
Aha ok, thanks for explaining it even more clear. I did not understand yet that the demodulation of the receiver is a hardware build-in and is not affected by setting the IguanaIR option --set-carrier.

--set-carrier is the carrier of the sent signal.

Quote:

So to really cleanly get a raw recording I should have a non-demodulating receiver that will not assume anything on the frequncy side, right?

Nothing (physical) goes up to infinite frequencies. E.g. a TSPM58000 is specified up to 60kHz, and the same thing probably goes for the QSE157 in an IrToy. Only Bang&Olufsen devices (?) are known to need faster.

Quote:
I am willing to buy another piece of hardware to settle this once and for all. But please check my current understanding of the issue so see if that will indeed work out:
1. The Motorola VIP 1853 remote is using in a non-standard protocol that cannot be configured in non-raw mode in Lirc (or any other program?)


That is the assumption, that is strictly speaking not proved. However, some people tried with 38kHz demodulators, and failed.

Quote:

2. So to control the VIP 1853 we need raw recordings of the remote that comes with the device.

Nope. We should identify and analyze the signal. Then from the description we generate it from a mathematical formula, free of rounding and measurement errors.
Quote:

3. The VIP 1853 is using 56KHz which results in non-optimal recordings from 38KHz demodulating hardware (like IguanaIR)

again, that is the plausible but yet unproven hypothesis.
Quote:
4. Using the program IrScrutinizer and the IrToy piece of hardware, I will be able to make 'real raw' recordings of the VIP 1853 remote using my windows machine.
I have not studied the IrToy firmware myself, but some said in the Dangerous Prototypes forum that it really uses the demodulating sensor for timing, the non-demodulating just for estimating the modulating frequency. So I can not really recommend it with the official firmware. But there is also an IrWidget emulating firmware around, which you should then prefer.

Quote:
5. I can use these recordings to make a Lirc config file that will state the raw pulse/space intervals at the right frequency.
yes, IrScrutinizer can do that.
Quote:

6. I can send these signals with Lirc through my IguanaIR, since Iguana sending hardware does support setting a different frequency.
I think so. You can also use the IrToy.

Quote:

Do you agree with the reasoning above?

So to summarize, can I buy the pre-assembled IrToy2 (http://www.seeedstudio.com/depot/usb-infrared-toy-v2-p-831.html?cPath=174) from here and without any other hardware or low level configuration use IrScrutinizer to record the signals I need?

See above. Use either the firmware version 2.2 or the IrWidget firmware.

Quote:
I do like to play around with this to get it working, but it should preferrably not include too much tinkering or soldering, since my main skill is on the software side, not the hardware.

soldering can be fun! Something like this is not that hard, but I have leaned that some people just cannot tell which part of a solderin iron that gets hot...

Quote:

P.S. I am aware of OpenRemote and other projects that achieve similar goals to mine. But since I am a programmer and this is a hobby project, I do like to create most of the software myself. Smile

Kewl. Very Happy
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ewjmulder



Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 4:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks again for your detailed answers! I just found out you are the creator of harctoolbox.org and the IrMaster and IrScrutinizer programs. Great work and good sources of information, thanks and keep up the open source-ing! Smile

You are right that some of my points are more assumption than fact, but it's currently the best educated guess, so the right point to continue this quest I think.

I am curious about what you mean by "We should identify and analyze the signal. Then from the description we generate it from a mathematical formula, free of rounding and measurement errors.". Can you explain a bit more on this and why it beats just repeating the raw measurements? Do we really need to 'crack' the whole protocol? I mean it would be nice of course, but I would already be happy if sending the raw signals recordings works reliably.

I googled some more on the IrToy and the IrWidget. From the IrToy documentation it indeed seems to plimarily focussed on using the 38 KHz demodulator for recording (http://dangerousprototypes.com/docs/USB_IR_Toy_v2#Infrared_demodulator, but I already can do that with the IguanaIR), but you should be able to use the frequency detector for 'real' raw wave measurements. But then you need to switch firmware versions, like you said. Or can firmware version 2.2 do the normal functions + wave recording of the frequency detector? On the other hand, the IrWidget is completely focussed on the raw wave recording and will definitely suit my needs for this task, right? So, which of these whould you recommend: IrToy or IrWidget?

Actually I have to admit I never used a soldering iron in my life so far. I am willing to try it, but also a bit afraid I screw up some hardware. What I do like so much about making software is that you can follow the trial-and-error path without worrying too much about stuff going wrong. When you're done experimenting and happy with the result, you can clean up everyting and make it elegant and robust. That's why I stuck to a breadboard so far for the little hardware that I've done. Smile
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Barf
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Joined: 24 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 12:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanx for those nice words on my website and my work. Very Happy Be sure to check it regularly the next few months -- things will happen. Wink

I have already said everything I know about the IrToy. You can use the forum on Dangerousprototypes too. The IrWidget is hardly to be purchased for a sane price. If you google, you may find some sources, for insane prices (parts are a few $/). So the cheapest way to get you hands on an IrWidget is actually the IrToy, using its IrWidget emulating firmware!

Or course, a breadboard-Arduino (e.g. Nano, Chinese "clones" are VERY cheap, see Ebay) is a viable alternative.

PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 10:18 pm Post subject:
Thanks again for your detailed answers! I just found out you are the creator of harctoolbox.org and the IrMaster and IrScrutinizer programs. Great work and good sources of information, thanks and keep up the open source-ing! Smile

You are right that some of my points are more assumption than fact, but it's currently the best educated guess, so the right point to continue this quest I think.

Quote:
I am curious about what you mean by "We should identify and analyze the signal. Then from the description we generate it from a mathematical formula, free of rounding and measurement errors.". Can you explain a bit more on this and why it beats just repeating the raw measurements? Do we really need to 'crack' the whole protocol? I mean it would be nice of course, but I would already be happy if sending the raw signals recordings works reliably.

Likely, it will turn out that IrScrutinizer (or more precicely DecodeIR within) will identify the signal as a known one -- and then you are done since IrScrutinizer knows how to generate it. Using clean signals, i.e. free of measurement errors, offers higher reliability, disturbance tolerance, and sensitivity. It needs less space to store, and is more appropriate to communicate to the rest of the world, who wants to know how to control the thingy.
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ewjmulder



Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok great, I just ordered an IRToy v2 from seeedstudio.com. It will take some time to arrive, but when it does, I'm sure to let you know on this forum thread what the measurement results are. Thanks again for all your help and till later! Smile
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ewjmulder



Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Tue Oct 07, 2014 4:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The IRToy arrived today and I immediately hooked it up to IrScrutinizer to test the VIP1853 remote. The signals from the remote were instantly recognized! Actually it was already mentioned before on this very topic: it is protocol CanalSatLD, device: 37, subdevice: 0.

Now that I re-read the start of this topic it suddenly all makes sense. It's funny how I missed the obvious solution when I first read it a few weeks ago. I did not understand the topic well enough at the time and later I focussed more on the (de)modulation and frequency issues. But actually the answer was already present all that time. Smile
Still nice to see it come together with my own receiver hardware and Barf's great program.

I recorded the entire remote and made a LIRC / WinLIRC export: http://pastebin.com/jPRfaCc9
It works perfectly for me using my IguanaIR transmitter.
The only thing that this actually adds to the default CanalSetLD export is giving the right name to the various function numbers.

@Barf: thanks so much for your help and letting me understand the subject better.
@spicemint: re-reading the topic I saw you actually already tried the CanalSatLD export with no success. Could it be you were not using the right hardware at that time, so the 56000 frequency wasn't working for you? Maybe if you try the LIRC config file I created and linked above with hardware that does support the 56000 frequency it'll work for you as well. Good luck!
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Barf
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Congratulations! Cool In particular that we know that it is the same protocol as in the updates mentionen at the beginning of the thread.

Let me explain briefly how "we" here tick: A device is believed to be known in the sense that the commands, in the sense of protocol (including carrier frequency) and the parameters are known. (Sometimes there may be additional commands implemented in the device, but not present on the physical remote, but that is another story.) When someone comes up saying that (s)he has that device, but it cannot be controlled the way expected, there are two possibilities:

1. He/she is wrong (bad knowhow and/or silly hard/software)
2. He/she has really a device with different commands.

It is in general very hard to rule out 2., in particular since the "clients" in general have incomplete knowledge, and more often than not, very limited hardware.

In particular, Lirc has more quirks and glitches than you believe... Crying or Very sad Evil or Very Mad (I know what I am taking about...)

Note that the IrToy also make a very good IR sender. (But flash the 2.2 version of the firmware first). IrScrutinizer can use it directly. If you want to go for Lirc, there is a native IrToy driver since a few weeks ,(I had my fingers there too...) but that will presently require you to such the GIT sources and compile yourself.
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ewjmulder



Joined: 09 Sep 2014
Posts: 7

PostPosted: Wed Oct 08, 2014 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed there was an unfortunate lack of knowledge on my side combined with the statements on several forums that the VIP1853 was somehow 'different'. Now it turns out it indeed uses a not so widespread protocol, but it can be recognized by using the right tools. Smile

I'll have to find out in day to day use if Lirc suits my needs, so far it has been working quite well. And I prefer using the IguanaIR hardware, because it has seperate wires connecting all my 4 devices at the same time, placed inside a colsed cabinet. That seems hard if not impossible with a single emitter like the IrToy. I did flash it with the 2.2 firmware btw and IrScrutinizer uses it well indeed. I'll definitely be coming back to that combo in any future IR work.
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