JP1 Remotes

unclemiltie · Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2004 8:31 pm Post subject:

FYI - I've uploaded a upgrade for the 721 that runs on the 15-2116. The fixed data has to be different (5-bytes versus 2-bytes as someone mentioned earlier in this thread)

Without the extra three bytes, nothing worked. Intrestingly enough, some keys did work, but they all resulted in the "info" function being selected on the receiver. Sort of odd.

Finally, another interesting thing. A guy I work with tried to use the RCU810 upgrade in his 2117 and it didn't work so he sucked it into RM and tried it there and it worked fine. (ie: no change of the fixed data)
So, there's some minor difference on this protocol of how the data is formatted between KM and RM.

enjoy

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

(6131)
ok - I gave the device combiner a try again (using the 5 byte fixed data that unclemiltie just uploaded).

Much better - all keys seem to be working (though I'm recording right now and afraid to push too many buttons - it's rather crash prone).

ok - now the problem is still the pip keys. They're only active in the TV mode (which loses a bunch of other keys).

So, they still need to be key-moved in. This will still require manual key moves at the remote (I'm trying to come up with a simple upload for non-jp1 experts - this, in my opinion, precludes the extender).

These are on Device 1. I assume I can't key move from the custom device combiner device, so I still have to upload a device to act as a source for the pip keymoves.

It's not too bad, if I only setup the 3 pip keys the device is only 13 bytes.

So I'm still not sure what the best way is. I suppose the device combiner is nice since it allows setting up all except PIP on 1 spreadsheet. 2nd advantage, it there only 3 key moves are required.

Without the combiner, around 9 key moves are required and still two devices uploaded. I suppose this might actually be less memory (since the combiner also requires a custom protocol).

Am I missing something? Is there a way to use the combiner and avoid uploading a 2nd device to keymove the pip keys from?

I see that unclemiltie's device does have some two byte keymoves. I suppose the first byte is the device id? But I assume that these keymoves will not work with a 6131....

John Q: I looked at your upload. It might be a bit confusing. Uploaded the spreadsheet with device 1. You mention the need for two devices, but don't mention ever uploading device 0. I guess your using the native device 0 to get most of the keys.

This is good for saving memory, but might be bad for people who want to remap keys or use a unit code other then 0.

Were you able to enter the keymoves into ir? I thought ir doesn't support keymoves on the 6131 (without the extender). Has this changed?

Edit: John - ok, I'm experimenting with your upload. Yes, the keymoves do seem to work. Though I'm not sure I like being stuck with the native 0775 keys. My preferance might be to upload a custom device 0 and device 1 then do the keymoves. Couldn't device 1 be created without any hard-mapped keys to save some memory?

oh well - both methods (with or without device combiner) have their pain. The device combiner version is a bit easier to play with key mapping since everything is seen in one place.
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unclemiltie · Posted: Thu Mar 18, 2004 10:00 pm Post subject:

david

it would be interesting if you could get your hands on a 2116 or 2117 and see if that upgrade works with the 921. The PIP keys work just fine on the 721 on the 2117 that I've been playing with. (I'm now off in extender land with that one and making a mess, but learning)

I have a contact at E* that I've been doing some work with, I should ask him if the IR codes are the same for both boxes. I'll let you know what he says.

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

unclemiltie,

thanks

The IR codes are the same. The 921 has the interesting problem that the new RF remote doesn't output IR when in SAT mode. Many people are getting 721 remotes to program thier IR learners.

The difficulty with the PIP keys have nothing to do with the ir codes. Those keys are not available for device programming (except in TV mode) - they're ghosted. Normally, I would simply key-move them, in keymapmaster, but keymove is not available for the 6131 with device combiner.

I do have a nice collection of jp1 remotes to play with, and may grab one of the RS remotes to play with next time I see a sale. I'm still intriguged with the 6131 because almost every function I need directly maps to a labeled key (PVR, PIP, chapter skip, menu, info, guide, etc).
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unclemiltie · Posted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

to round this one out

my contact at Echostar says that the 921 is a derivative of the 721 software and it should be using the same keycodes (which David has figured out) As an interesting sidenote, I asked him about the discrete on/of codes that I found originally on the 508 and then found that the on didn't work on the 721.

The on/off discretes were recently added and the On "should not be a toggle" . He's going to play out there in Littleton, so maybe there's hope that these discretes will make it into a future software update.

In the mean time, I've resigned myself to the fact that

discrete_on = discrete_off; power_toggle

(but then again, I'm about to embark on ToadTog for something else...)

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

Ok - got it working. Thanks for all the help.

I just uploaded a 721/921 upgrade for the URC-6131. Is uses the device combiner so only the three PIP keys need to be moved in.

Since the PIP keys are on device 1, a second (small) device upload is needed.
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David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

I received an E-Mail from a user trying to get the 921 working with a 15-1994. So, I build a upgrade using the device combiner.

I have it working for Unit Code 0 (remote 0/1). But I'm not sure how to generate different unit codes.

The 1994 uses only 1 byte of fixed data. In order to get different unit codes, keymapmaster must be in OBC mode (or nothing changes). And, when changing unit codes all the EFCs change and there is no change to the fixed data.

I suppose I could use the regular spreadsheet in OBC mode, change the unit code, and get the new EFCs to enter into the device combiner SS.
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jon_armstrong · Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 7:38 pm Post subject:

The version of the Dishplayer (old) Protocol in the 1994, uses 8-bits of fixed data and 8-bits of variable data. The fixed data comes after the variable data. The OBC's are 6-bits, unit code is 5-bits and the device code is also 5-bits. (0 is the least significant bit and 7 is the most significant bit)

-Variable-|--Fixed --
76543210 76543210

--OBC-|-Unit--|-Dev-
543210 01234 43210

The Unit codes are LSB first, so the bottom two bits of the Unit code are in the variable data, so units 0 through 3 (System Address 1 through 4) can be controlled by using different EFC's.

I haven't been following this entire thread, but IIRC only six keys or so of some PVR's take an alternate device code for the Transport buttons, wouldn't it be easier to just use key moves?

If this doesn't seem like a very lucid explanation, just post your upgrade and I can probably give you some more practical suggestions.
_________________
-Jon

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

Thanks - I mostly get it. Still sounds like to get different Unit codes the EFCs need to be modified (doable in OBC mode). Not impossible, but a bit of a pain with the "Device Combiner" spreadsheet which must operation in EFC mode.
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jon_armstrong · Posted: Sat Mar 27, 2004 8:27 pm Post subject:

Yes and to make matters worse KM Master still uses the old OBC convention and IR/DecodeCCF and any other tools that use John Fine's decoders decode according to the above definition. KM Master still looks at Device, OBC and Unit being LSB first.

Mark Pierson and I have been discussing fixing KM Master for some time and it is really over this issue and the three different implementations of the Protocol depending on remote type.

I think we have come to the conclusion to build a master device upgrade since there are only 64 possible commands and from what I can tell the command sets are pretty consistent across the board. Not all models respond to all commands but, if they do, it is the same one.

If you give me a list of EFC's that work in Unit=0, I can give you back a Spreadsheet with the EFC sets for the four different cases (Units 0 through 3)

Probably just easier to email me if that would help.
_________________
-Jon

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

Does Remote Master address this KM Master limitation? Does it support device combiner?

I'm probably ok, I've got what I need right now. I'm pretty active in some of the Echostar DBS forums and questions about universal remotes and JP1 frequently come up.

I like to help where I can. The 721/921 got more complicated because they use two different subdevices.

The recent uploads which use the device combiner would show all the EFC's for Unit 0 (and witch device is witch).

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/jp1/files/3.%20Device%20Codes/PVR/Dishnet_921_721_ID-0_15-1994.zip

If you want to generate the other EFCs I could try to create 15-1994 devices for the rest of the community (though I think I get get them from run KM Master in OBC mode).
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jon_armstrong · Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 9:29 am Post subject:

David,

IIRC, RM does work correctly. I believe John Fine set up its Protocol ini to work with Dish. I have been meaning to look at it and see.

It also occured to me that we can write a new protocol for Dish using Protocol Builder and its Mini-combiner feature. The net result would be a Protocol that would work for most remotes and it would have only One variable byte that could call up to four different devices with the extra two bits. My guess is that this Protocol wouldn't be any bigger than the device combiner, particularly since you need two bytes for every command.

IIRC, that also that could eliminate a problem where there is a need for more repeats of the command to work reliably in macros.

You would still be able to enter the unit code in KM.

I'll take a look at the link later this afternoon and put the protocol together with a device upgrade and experiment with it.
_________________
-Jon

jon_armstrong · Posted: Sun Mar 28, 2004 4:26 pm Post subject:

David I just posted a device and protocol upgrade using a Protocol created in PB, that is a mini combiner.

The total size of this (device upgrade+Key Moves+Protocol Upgrade) is 127 bytes compared to the device combiner version that is 212 bytes and has a single variable byte. It is compatible with your EFC's and if you want to invoke device 16 then add 16 to the EFC's in your original upgrade. I have already corrected that in my version of the device upgrade. I have done some limited testing but since I use DirecTV, I don't have any Dish gear. This really should be a master upgrade for all Dish equipment that uses the most common Dishplayer (old) protocol aka SAT/0775.

I also made my mini combiner do unit code 0 (system address 1) or unit code 1(system address 2), so depending on EFC you an do commands from device 0 or 16 for either system address. You can also create this with another device upgrade and set the unit code in sub-device. I have put the sub-device by system address under the notes in functions. One useful feature for the system address switch within EFC's is that Unit code 31 is apparently an all units code, if you want to turn off all dish gear with one command (assuming they all recognize the discrete codes).

I also included the PB file and an Excel spreadsheet where I calculated the new EFC's to trigger the alternate device/sub-device in the mini -combiner. If you or anyone else has a 740 remote then they could probably build a 740 version of this device upgrade.

So take a look and let me know what you think.
_________________
-Jon

David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41

Wow, that sounds great - I'll take a look.

I may not get to it today though.
Sounds like this will be a good replacement for all the others.
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David_Levin · Joined: 22 Oct 2003 Posts: 41