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OT selecting a TV

 
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 4:36 pm    Post subject: OT selecting a TV Reply with quote

Oh oh, DH just called me in to the living room to have me read the score off the upper corner of the TV. When I couldn't read it, he said "See! We DO need a bigger TV". So I've lost the battle. I really don't want to do this, as there is nothing, ABSOLUTELY NOTHING wrong with a the 22 year old 25" TV.

So before I go shopping I thought I'd ask you guys for some advice. With the following criteria

This TV will be used 4mos per year.
This will live in a highly corrosive environment. Everything here rusts!
There is a very high amount of light in the room during the daytime (so light in all the rooms, that I can only capture to the widget in the interior bathroom when the sun is up)
We are getting Comcast regular service, and I don't want to upgrade to HD because our association's negotiated contract with Comcast amounts to highway robbery. I know that when we went to the box, the other widescreen tv we had lost all the quality I had come to love. We were getting crisp HD stations, but now we can only get service with a box and everything is less than crisp.
Husband likes sports, I like movies.
I have a vertigo problem, which makes me really sensitive to motion artifacts.
And of course I want lots of discrete functions! No toggling protocol!

I am not worried about initial cost of the item, but I am worried about lifespan in the harsh conditions, viewing quality with standard def Comcast box, motion artifacts.

The TV stand is 36" wide, so that it wil limit the size screen that will fit in the room.

So do I want given these conditions.
Plasma,LCD, LED
Do I want 1028 or 710 (when viewed with a comcast box)
Refresh rate 60hz or 120hz.
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

                    
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 6:57 pm    Post subject: Re: OT selecting a TV Reply with quote

vickyg2003 wrote:
....I am not worried about initial cost of the item, but I am worried about lifespan in the harsh conditions, viewing quality with standard def Comcast box, motion artifacts.....

Lifespan is likely to be about 5 years, regardless of conditions. (its complicated/technical)

Small sized TVs do not have very good deinterlacing circuits. This means artifacts on anything that's not a true HD feed. Sorry.

With a new TV, however, you should be able to split the cable and send one feed to the box and one to the TVs tuner directly. The local stations should still be available in HD this way. When your Comcast goes all-digital, this may allow you to eliminate the box altogether. You might want to try this with your other HD set now. Connect the set directly and scan for available channels. Cable companies are supposed to supply the locals in HD even if they encrypt everything else. (called Clear QAM)

[tech]SD content is interlaced, a fixed pixel display is progressive. SD content has to be deinterlaced then scaled to the native panel resolution. It takes superior video processing to do this cleanly - like Faroudja - causing the common complaint - "It looks great on HD and bad on everything else".[/tech]
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 7:54 pm    Post subject: Re: OT selecting a TV Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
With a new TV, however, you should be able to split the cable and send one feed to the box and one to the TVs tuner directly. The local stations should still be available in HD this way. When your Comcast goes all-digital, this may allow you to eliminate the box altogether. You might want to try this with your other HD set now. Connect the set directly and scan for available channels. Cable companies are supposed to supply the locals in HD even if they encrypt everything else. (called Clear QAM)

My cable company did go all digital in April. There are 6 channels that can be tuned in, without the box, but none of them are "digital" they all tune in as analog with a poor picture. All the digital content that I was getting before they went digital seems to be gone along with the crystal clear picture. I am in the process of scanning the channels to see if there is anything new since last time I looked.
zaphod7501 wrote:
[tech]SD content is interlaced, a fixed pixel display is progressive. SD content has to be deinterlaced then scaled to the native panel resolution. It takes superior video processing to do this cleanly - like Faroudja - causing the common complaint - "It looks great on HD and bad on everything else".[/tech]

Wow this really makes me want to retain my old tv. Buying an expensive tv and then having to pay a ransom to get a decent picture makes me want to skip the whole process.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: OT selecting a TV Reply with quote

This was a good exercise. I found that I could tune in some digital content with the the TV. Beautiful picture, but boy this is going to give me an impossible setup if I want to try to get this to setup using both the converter box and the straight digital signals too.
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

                    
PostPosted: Sun Dec 19, 2010 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: OT selecting a TV Reply with quote

vickyg2003 wrote:
This was a good exercise. I found that I could tune in some digital content with the the TV. Beautiful picture, but boy this is going to give me an impossible setup if I want to try to get this to setup using both the converter box and the straight digital signals too.

It depends on which cable box involved. A Tuning Adapter won't work well unless the TV has two antenna inputs. A tuning adapter would generally require an A/B switch. Coax to splitter, one output from the splitter to box, the other output to an A/B switch input. The output of the box to the other A/B switch input. The A/B switch output to the TV antenna input.

An alternative to an A/B switch is to use a demodulator to take the channel 3 RF signal and convert it to line video. (red/white/yellow - see STB instructions below) A plain old VCR can do the job. A DVD/VCR recorder would work also.

A nifty macro could automate the switching process for the devices involved, possibly including a remote controlled A/B switch.

A STB (set-top-box), however, has line outputs (red/white/yellow) which could be connected to the TV using a direct video input - like a DVD connection method. Coax to splitter, one output from the splitter to box, the other output to the TV. The line output of the STB (red/white/yellow) to a video input on the TV. Watch HD - TV on coax input. Watch STB - TV on line input. A STB will generally pick up a few more (authorized) stations than a Tuning Adapter due to physical limitations of the DTAs.

I'm pretty certain that a Tuning Adapter could be taken apart and the video and audio tapped off to provide a line level output. Comcast would probably not be very happy about doing that, however.

If your cableco is like mine, then a transition to 100% digital would allow all of the basic (2-22) channels to be accessed without a box if the TV has a digital tuner.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do have a DVD/VCR combo unit attache to the digital tv, perhaps a set of AV cables, a splitter and an all/on macro might be just what I need. There are 39 english speaking digital channels coming in, out of a possible 79 that I get from the Thomson box, or the 68 that I get from the Motorola box. Of course this would be complicated for my user's because I'd have to provide a list of digital stations if they want the digital picture. I would like to see the difference between my digital picture and the dumbed down analog in quick succession.

Of course when I go to the newer digital TV, I'll be having additional problems because they seem to all offer scads of hdmi inputs, but only one AV set of inputs. I have lots of AV equipment. DVRs, DVD players.... But this will at least give me an idea of what amount of downgrading will be happening and will determine whether we purchase a new TV or not.
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zaphod7501



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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There were several remote controlled A/V (video not coax) switches available - upgrades should still be in the file section for some of them.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the picture quality of the cable boxes. I'd suggest using the box for all SD material (channel numbers will match the cable guide) and the TV for HD - erasing all the SD digital channels, so a channel up/down would run through the few HD channels. (probably only 5 - 10 depending on your market) If your locals have correct PSIP data, they will be identified by their correct broadcast channel numbers on the TV.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 20, 2010 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
There were several remote controlled A/V (video not coax) switches available - upgrades should still be in the file section for some of them.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the picture quality of the cable boxes. I'd suggest using the box for all SD material (channel numbers will match the cable guide) and the TV for HD - erasing all the SD digital channels, so a channel up/down would run through the few HD channels. (probably only 5 - 10 depending on your market) If your locals have correct PSIP data, they will be identified by their correct broadcast channel numbers on the TV.

The local market here consists of 2 stations, an ind, that is still analog, and CW, lol. None of the tv stations coming in have anything to do with the numbers on the screen. It will be a trick figuring out which is HD and which is SD. They all look better than what I'm getting through the box. I really have been watching more TV on the little converter box because all the girl channels, OXG, Liffetime, hallmark... are coming in on those boxes, but the motorola box says I'm not autorized to view them.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 8:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
There were several remote controlled A/V (video not coax) switches available - upgrades should still be in the file section for some of them.

I've been pleasantly surprised by the picture quality of the cable boxes. I'd suggest using the box for all SD material (channel numbers will match the cable guide) and the TV for HD - erasing all the SD digital channels, so a channel up/down would run through the few HD channels. (probably only 5 - 10 depending on your market) If your locals have correct PSIP data, they will be identified by their correct broadcast channel numbers on the TV.


Thanks for all your help. I've found that there are several HD channels that are of interest to me, Msnbc, TWC, CBS, ABC, FOX, WGN, ION, CW, PBS. I can't compare them side by side to the box, but I could flip over to the stretched non-hd format that was being aired and could not get over the difference in the action sequence! I wasn't going to bother with the little TV in the second bedroom. I was just going to keep it analog channel 3, but seeing the difference makes me think it may be worthwhile to do in both rooms that will have digital tv's.

So am I to understand from your post that only the A/V inputs are switchable with a remote? I was hoping I could switch the coax source boxs. That would mean I wouldn't have the DVD/VCR on 100% of the time that I'm watching regular cable. But if its not available or really pricey, perhaps turning on DVD/VCR would be the best way to go in room 2.

Comcast gave us one big Motorola box, and 2 itty-bitty converter boxes. The big Motorola box seems to have AV output, so it looks like the monsterously big VCR can stay in the closet for now. If the new TV has two av inputs I'll be all set, but otherwise I'll be hunting for a remote controlled AV switch too.
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zaphod7501



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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 9:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

They make remote controlled RF/Coax switches. Its just a different device than A/V switches (also called baseband video) People often buy "Video Switches" and discover they are RF/Coax and not Video switches. You just need to be careful when buying to get the one you want.

You could also run the video from the big box into an "agile modulator" which generates a RF channel of your choosing and add it to the ch3 output of the other box to get a coax cable containing ch3 from a DTA and, say ch 125 from the big box. Tuning the small TV to 3 gets the output of the DTA and changing to 125 gets the output of the big box: essentially building your own private cable system containing 2 channels.

They also make inexpensive channel 3 add-ers. http://www.mcmelectronics.com/product/DISTRIBUTED-BY-MCM-SC-3-/33-255 They only work well if you cable system does not contain a channel 3 analog channel. Cable goes in one connection, channel 3 from DTA (small box) goes in the other, the output then contains all the original cable channels with the box added in on channel 3. The TV then has access to all the HD channels (in the clear) with the box output added on 3. (Your mileage may vary)

I think you are talking about slaving the bedroom TV to boxes located in another room ?? Or switching between HD and cable box on a TV without video jacks ? or switching between HD and a box that doesn't have video outputs ?

The toughest part of designing an A/V distribution system is defining very precisely what you want to accomplish ... and then trying to explain that to someone else, sight-unseen. It can get real complicated, real fast.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
They make remote controlled RF/Coax switches. Its just a different device than A/V switches (also called baseband video) People often buy "Video Switches" and discover they are RF/Coax and not Video switches. You just need to be careful when buying to get the one you want.

I used to use one myself, it was an A/B switch from Radio Shack. IIRC, I used to use it to switch between the raw cable and the output of the cable box.

My old upgrade for it is in the file section:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=814
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
I think you are talking about slaving the bedroom TV to boxes located in another room ?? Or switching between HD and cable box on a TV without video jacks ? or switching between HD and a box that doesn't have video outputs ?

The toughest part of designing an A/V distribution system is defining very precisely what you want to accomplish ... and then trying to explain that to someone else, sight-unseen. It can get real complicated, real fast.


Well this did become real complicated, but its FUN! I was talking about switching between HD and cable box on a box that doesn't have video outputs. I was hoping to have the tuner do all the work, but looking at the price of the coax switch, I decided to turn on the VCR instead.

So I went to the store, bought a splitter and a couple of short lengths of coax and some rca cables, and I'm in business. Unfortunately the VCR needs to be on all the time that the TV is on, since the majority of the channels available are going in through the VCR to go out as video.

I'm now juggling three remotes!!!! I have spent the last three hours doing a discrete hunt and have found the discrete inputs to my TV so I can switch between input2 and tuner without digging through the menu. Its confusing as can be right now, but by tomorrow, it will be seemless when I get this all programmed into my remote. And then I'll be so proud and NOBODY will care. Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Laughing
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zaphod7501



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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

vickyg2003 wrote:

Well this did become real complicated, but its FUN! I was talking about switching between HD and cable box on a box that doesn't have video outputs. I was hoping to have the tuner do all the work, but looking at the price of the coax switch, I decided to turn on the VCR instead.

This is where the ch3 adder could work. (see previous MCM link) The cable box would show up on channel 3 but the TV tuner would still tune everything else itself. The only caveat is that you have to clear out the channel 3 position before adding the channel 3 from the DTA (small box is called a Digital Tuning Adapter, hence DTA) if the cable company has an analog ch3 already. The adder has a filter to remove the old ch3 but it's not good enough to do it completely. I have used 2 adders in series to filter twice the original ch3 since ch3, single channel traps are hard to come by. They do exist, however. My cableco put MTV on ch3 but offered customers an option to trap out that single channel, so the traps did exist.

My cable company dropped analog ch3 long ago, leaving a clear gap, to avoid interference between analog ch3 and all the RF modulators found in VCRs and cable boxes. This makes it easy to add your own ch3. I'm doing it in my system right now. I have the output of my A/V Receiver on ch125 (Media Player, DVD, PC are available on any TV in the house on ch125) and one of the DTAs on ch3 along with the rest of the Cable analog lineup. I have another modulator set to go whenever they finish the transition - just pushed back another month.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 23, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
.
This is where the ch3 adder could work. (see previous MCM link) The cable box would show up on channel 3 but the TV tuner would still tune everything else itself. The only caveat is that you have to clear out the channel 3 position before adding the channel 3 from the DTA (small box is called a Digital Tuning Adapter, hence DTA) if the cable company has an analog ch3 already. The adder has a filter to remove the old ch3 but it's not good enough to do it completely. I have used 2 adders in series to filter twice the original ch3 since ch3, single channel traps are hard to come by. They do exist, however. My cableco put MTV on ch3 but offered customers an option to trap out that single channel, so the traps did exist.


My cable company has 2, 3,and 4 so the adder didn't sound like a good option. Your idea of weeding out everything but the HD channels on the TV tuner worked great.
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