 |
JP1 Remotes
|
| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
stangbat
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Location: KC
|
 Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 9:36 am Post subject: JP1 help update - Site wiki? |
 |
|
I recently had difficulty getting LKPs to work on my 8910. Part of the problem was bonehead errors by myself, but I don't think that was all of it. I read the extender readme, the LKP readme, and searched the site before starting a topic asking for help. After Vicky graciously got me straightened out, I realized that a good amount of my frustration arose because the extender help information (at least for the 8910) is out of date.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be a whiner and complainer. It takes a lot of time, dedication, and effort to write documentation in the first place and it is understandably hard to maintain motivation to keep it updated. There is a lot of good information already on the site, the beginner tutorials are great and very helpful. There's not as much information on extenders, probably because fewer people use them. I just think we need to update some of the information and pull together some information that is already out there in individual forum posts.
Originally I was going to offer to help update some of it on my own. But then I realized that if it is only me, it could never come to fruition if I lose interest, get frustrated, or just get lazy. Plus the questions arise of who do I send updates to, what format, who will build and update the forum pages, etc... So my next question is why don't we have a wiki? I did a search and I didn't see any topics discussing making a wiki. We could mine the information already here and together we could probably have a very good and up to date wiki fairly quickly.
If there is anything I can do, let me know. I don't have any experience with wiki software and I don't even know what would be best to use or how to go about it. I know there is FOSS for wikis available, but I have no knowledge of hosting costs, setup, etc. But I'd like to give back a little because this community has done amazing things with these remotes and I'm grateful and amazed at what I've been able to do with a $15 piece of equipment.
As a side note, one thing that I spent a bit of time searching for is definitions for some of the more advanced stuff: DSM, multiplexing, LKPs, ToadTog, etc. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
Stangbat, you had said that
irhelp.hlp didn't help you much with these. Did you read chapter 4, about extenders and the special protocols tab?
If you want to create updates for those topics, I'll roll them into the hlp file.
There are two JP1 wikis that I know about, the thing is that these tools change ALL the time.
I've got a project in mind, but not the time, on how I want to explain the ins and outs of programming a remote. I started a thread and have lots of good ideas, I just need to sit down and organize them into a good how too post.
I'm pretty sure that if we come up with good cohesive how to document, Rob will host it here. But when it comes to extenders they are all so DIFFERENT. Not all of them exploit learning memory. Not all of them include the special protocols. Not all of them include x-shift. Not all of them support nested macros. In fact that's what got me into extender writing. My beloved urc-7800 could no longer handle my system, so I bought a newer remote, the URC-8811, but neither had could handle my system without an extender. So I started with 8811 extender, and then went back to use the 7800 extender. The 7800 extender didn't have the cool features of the special protocols, or the xshift or the nested macros. So I shot my mouth off in the forum, I believe I said "How hard can it be, we already know it CAN be done"  Now I'm a remote-nerd who alienates friends and family..... 
_________________
Remember to provide feedback to let us know how the problem was solved and share your upgrades.
Tip: When creating an upgrade, always include ALL functions from the oem remote, even if you never plan on assigning them to a button. Complete function lists makes an upgrade more helpful to others.
Last edited by vickyg2003 on Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:58 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gfb107
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3411
Location: Cary, NC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
The Robman
Site Owner
Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 21237
Location: Chicago, IL
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:33 am Post subject: Re: JP1 help update - Site wiki? |
|
|
A wiki is probably a good idea, however I've never set one up so I don't know what's involved. If someone were to lay out what I'd need to do to install a wiki on this site, I'd look into it.
| stangbat wrote: | | As a side note, one thing that I spent a bit of time searching for is definitions for some of the more advanced stuff: DSM, multiplexing, LKPs, ToadTog, etc. |
We do have a glossary somewhere that should list the meanings of all of our acronyms but I don't remember where it is.
DSM = Device Specific Macro (ie, a macro that only works in one device mode, rather than all modes).
Device Multiplexor = a special protocol that lets you stack multiple setup codes on a single device button.
LKP = Long Key Press = an extender feature that lets you program a different function to a button when you do a long press vs. a short press.
Discrete Codes = codes that do one thing only. For example, a "discrete on" code would only turn the device on, it would never turn it off. "Video 1" would always select Video 1 and would never toggle to a different input.
TOAD = Toggle Only Actuated Device (ie, a device that has no discrete power codes).
TOADtog = a special protocol (mainly for extenders) that lets you set up discrete codes for devices that don't have them. It does this by keeping track of the device's state.
_________________
Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stangbat
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Location: KC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:08 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vickyg2003 wrote: | Stangbat, you had said that
irhelp.hlp didn't help you much with these. Did you read chapter 4, about extenders and the special protocols tab?
If you want to create updates for those topics, I'll roll them into the hlp file.
|
Okay, another case of me not quite understanding what was being discussed. I read the IR help that comes in the IR zip file. I did not realize there was a separate help file you could download. However, I'm still running into problems. Windows 7 stopped including the 32-bit Help file viewer in Windows releases beginning with Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008. So I had to download a patch that would allow me to open the file. And to do that, Microsoft was kind enough to force me to go through WGA validation again. And after going through all that, I still can't open the file. I get the following helpful advice:
"Cannot display this help file. Try opening the help file again, and if you still get this message, copy the help file to a different drive, and try again."
I copied the file to another drive and still no success. I'll keep looking for a way to open it but as of now I can't read it.
| vickyg2003 wrote: | There are two JP1 wikis that I know about, the thing is that these tools change ALL the time.
But when it comes to extenders they are all so DIFFERENT.
|
Yes, this is why I was thinking a wiki would help out greatly. Spread the work out among everyone who is interested rather than forcing all the work on one person. And I think the same line of thinking would also apply to the extender documentation. I'm getting more knowledgeable on how the 8910 extender works, but I wouldn't be much help on writing the extender wiki for the Atlas. Having others freely contribute would be beneficial.
| gfb107 wrote: | | I almost don't want to mention it, but Sourceforge offers wiki hosting along with the other services we already use (subversion, bug and feature tracking). I've turned on the wiki service, but haven't done anything else with it yet. |
I guess that would help with those projects, but it seems like if everything isn't in one place, the information could end up getting fragmented and confuse beginners. When I was embarking on learning about JP1 remotes in 2008, I almost threw my hands up at one point because I was having trouble realizing that KM and RM did the same thing, and that you needed IR in addition to KM or RM. Going back and forth between all the different help documents also made it a little onerous and probably contributed to some of my confusion.
| The Robman wrote: | | A wiki is probably a good idea, however I've never set one up so I don't know what's involved. If someone were to lay out what I'd need to do to install a wiki on this site, I'd look into it. |
Wish I could help you here. I guess at this point I'm just a (rather unattractive) cheerleader. 
| The Robman wrote: | | We do have a glossary somewhere that should list the meanings of all of our acronyms but I don't remember where it is. |
There is a glossary here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/jp1/help2/
But it doesn't cover extenders. There may be another but offhand I don't know the location. And thanks for the definitions. I'd figured out most of them already but you helped clarify some things. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Quote: | | I did not realize there was a separate help file you could download. However, I'm still running into problems. Windows 7 stopped including the 32-bit Help file viewer in Windows releases beginning with Windows Vista and Windows Server 2008. |
This came up last year and we talked about moving this to another format. I can see that this is going to become more and more of a problem. Hmm.
_________________
Remember to provide feedback to let us know how the problem was solved and share your upgrades.
Tip: When creating an upgrade, always include ALL functions from the oem remote, even if you never plan on assigning them to a button. Complete function lists makes an upgrade more helpful to others.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stangbat
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Location: KC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:18 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vickyg2003 wrote: |
This came up last year and we talked about moving this to another format. I can see that this is going to become more and more of a problem. Hmm. |
Yes, as more people migrate away from XP, it will become a problem.
I think the reason I can't open it now is because of some security settings changes that were applied due to the recent zero day exploits that use Windows Help viewer. I'll need to make some security policy changes to view the file. Not something that most users even know how to do or want to do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
There is a big difference between didn't help to not being able to open it.
Well last year I posted the source for the help file. The source is in RTF files. There is some weird markup language that we have to use to get the links in help to work, but you should be able to read around that to get the gist of where what is said.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=6859
Read chapter 4
_________________
Remember to provide feedback to let us know how the problem was solved and share your upgrades.
Tip: When creating an upgrade, always include ALL functions from the oem remote, even if you never plan on assigning them to a button. Complete function lists makes an upgrade more helpful to others.
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stangbat
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Location: KC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| vickyg2003 wrote: | There is a big difference between didn't help to not being able to open it.
Well last year I posted the source for the help file. The source is in RTF files. There is some weird markup language that we have to use to get the links in help to work, but you should be able to read around that to get the gist of where what is said.
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=6859
Read chapter 4 |
Got it. Yes, that would have been very helpful. Thanks for being patient with me and helping me getting it going anyway!
I've installed the KB patch and done the registry edits Microsoft suggests and I still can't open the .hlp file. Some Googling shows that I'm not the only person having this problem.
Having this help information/document in a wiki where it could be updated as changes are made to IR would be nice. I'd work on moving the stuff and updating it if we get something figured out. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Capn Trips
Expert
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 3990
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've held off on commenting since (a) others are doing just fine, and (2) since it might seem self-promoting, but did you read this extender FAQ?
I would think that it could answer a lot of your questions (except for a detailed description of what the various special protocols can do.) Perhaps it could use an edit to provide more detail about them. I'll look into that.
If you DID find it, please tell me what do do to make it more useful.
If you did NOT find it, please tell me how to label it so that a user like you CAN find it. I kinda thought the title of the sticky post would be self-explanatory.
_________________
Beginners - Read this thread first
READ BEFORE POSTING or your post will be DELETED!
Remotes: OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: LG 65" Smart LED TV; Samsung QN850BF Series - 8K UHD Neo QLED LCD TV
RCVR: Onkyo TX-SR875; Integra DTR 40.3
DVD/VCR: Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A3 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-D704.
Amazon Firestick
tape deck: Pioneer CT 1380WR (double cassette deck)
(But I still have to get up for my beer) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
stangbat
Joined: 28 Feb 2008
Posts: 58
Location: KC
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:07 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Capn Trips wrote: | I've held off on commenting since (a) others are doing just fine, and (2) since it might seem self-promoting, but did you read this extender FAQ?
I would think that it could answer a lot of your questions (except for a detailed description of what the various special protocols can do.) Perhaps it could use an edit to provide more detail about them. I'll look into that.
If you DID find it, please tell me what do do to make it more useful.
If you did NOT find it, please tell me how to label it so that a user like you CAN find it. I kinda thought the title of the sticky post would be self-explanatory. |
Yes, I read that and it is helpful and it has helped me in the past. But that FAQ is written to help explain what an extender is and how to set one up. I'd already done that a year ago with minimal aggravation. I didn't need any additional help, and I've been using it with no problems. Over two years ago I built a parallel JP1 cable, learned how to use RM, KM, and IR by reading the FAQs searching the forum. I didn't need any any outside help. As I mentioned earlier, I was pretty frustrated at one point until it all clicked and the light came on.
What started all this and my recent aggravation was wanting to implement LKPs. So I followed the advice in step 10 of the extender FAQ and that is where the confusion started. The readmes for the 8910 extender are not up to date and I was getting confused when trying to process the (good) advice from the forum along with the information in the readmes (which is also good advice, it is just dated).
So to answer your questions, I found the FAQs just fine, and they are easy to find. And they have been very helpful. I think it isn't quite as easy or intuitive to find the help information that is placed in the file section, at least for a newcomer. But that really isn't what made me start this topic.
I appreciate everyone's willingness to update documentation and help. I'm suggesting a wiki because if we had one, we all could be working together on the updates and we wouldn't need to have any single person step up to apply any updates or revisions.
I hope nobody is taking any of this as criticism or negativity. I think the basic JP1 setup, extender setup, and use of the tools is fairly well documented. I was looking for an easier way to update some of the more advanced documentation as well as an easier way to update the documentation in general. And an easier way to collaborate when updating and creating the documentation in the first place.
_________________
Erik |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Capn Trips
Expert
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 3990
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:09 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Well, somewhere near the top of this thread, you described a situation in which you were setting up LKPs using hex commands, indicating that you had the wrong RDFs selected for the extended IR image, and were not getting the Special Protocols Functions tab activated in IR.
I'm not sure how you got there, and am trying to figure it out. The latest RDFs are "usually" in the latest RDF distribution zip file, except for relatively new extenders, so if you used the RDF from the extender zip file which is indeed likely dated, then no amount of read-me's or FAQ's or Wikis would have helped.
That said, I agree that documenting the help and info here has been and will remain a challenge and your offer to help establish a mechanism that allows for others to hop on board and update as updates are necessary (rather than having each "document" have a single "owner" who may or may not have the time or inclination to update it) is appreciated.
_________________
Beginners - Read this thread first
READ BEFORE POSTING or your post will be DELETED!
Remotes: OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: LG 65" Smart LED TV; Samsung QN850BF Series - 8K UHD Neo QLED LCD TV
RCVR: Onkyo TX-SR875; Integra DTR 40.3
DVD/VCR: Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A3 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-D704.
Amazon Firestick
tape deck: Pioneer CT 1380WR (double cassette deck)
(But I still have to get up for my beer) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gfb107
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3411
Location: Cary, NC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
gfb107
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3411
Location: Cary, NC
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Capn Trips
Expert
Joined: 03 Oct 2003
Posts: 3990
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:57 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've updated the extender FAQ thread to include a paragraph (6a) which attempt to illuminate the Special Protocols uses and application. Improvements are invited.
_________________
Beginners - Read this thread first
READ BEFORE POSTING or your post will be DELETED!
Remotes: OFA XSight Touch, AR XSight Touch
TVs: LG 65" Smart LED TV; Samsung QN850BF Series - 8K UHD Neo QLED LCD TV
RCVR: Onkyo TX-SR875; Integra DTR 40.3
DVD/VCR: Pioneer DV-400VK (multi-region DVD), Sony BDP-S350 (Blu-ray), Toshiba HD-A3 (HD-DVD), Panasonic AG-W1 (Multi-system VCR);
Laserdisc: Pioneer CLD-D704.
Amazon Firestick
tape deck: Pioneer CT 1380WR (double cassette deck)
(But I still have to get up for my beer) |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
File Section
Wiki
