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Toshiba CZ32V51 - vertical hold issue
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digital_silence



Joined: 22 May 2004
Posts: 237

PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
In order to track down a service manual, I need the chassis number. My friend referred to a "TAC" number. Their manuals were issued by chassis rather than model numbers, making locating the right one difficult.

It's either TAC9910 or (less likely) TAC9110.

I don't have this Serv.Man in my archives - see if you can get it for Rob, even though it looks like he's just accomplished the mission.
Well... service manual is always handy to have, especially for the old beasts like this one (I am referring to the TV, not to its owner... :-))).
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You got it right the first time. I just went down there to see if the date was written on the back anywhere (it wasn't) but found the chassis number there, clear as day. It is TAC9910.

I don't know that I'd call it old (I'm guessing I bought it new about 10 years ago) but it is a beast to carry, especially compared to all this skinny TVs that they're making now.

Of course, the cheap TVs that I just bought from the thrift store are much younger. The Daewoo DTQ-27S3FCN ($20) is from June 2001 and the Panasonic CT-27L8G ($30) is from Jan 2004.
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digital_silence



Joined: 22 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 1:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They all will probably serve you another 20 years until the tubes eventually degrade naturally...

Component getting loose... wish the faults on all those modern "skinny" ones would be of that order of complexity... :-)

Sometimes when I look at the reliability of the current TV designs, that makes me wonder whether that was actually done on purpose, just to be able to make another fortune on selling the replacement boards to the service centres (none of the manufacturers provide the support or spare parts supply on the component level - they all train their techos to diagnose and replace the whole modules only... and most of the Service Manuals come with no or very limited schematics)
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vickyg2003
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Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 6:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:

I don't know that I'd call it old (I'm guessing I bought it new about 10 years ago) but it is a beast to carry, especially compared to all this skinny TVs that they're making now.

Of course, the cheap TVs that I just bought from the thrift store are much younger. The Daewoo DTQ-27S3FCN ($20) is from June 2001 and the Panasonic CT-27L8G ($30) is from Jan 2004.


I like these "old" tv's simply because it makes me less likely to be a target for theft. They are so heavy and so cheap that nobody would bother.

The only thing that is bothering me is the new expense for operating the TV's now that we've gone digital. When the cable company goes totally digitial and you have to have those converter boxes on all your TV's, even the digital ones, it gets really expensive, really fast.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My cable company has already moved everything except the OTA channels into digital, but I haven't switched. With a PVR you can still record enough good stuff to not need cable.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
My cable company has already moved everything except the OTA channels into digital, but I haven't switched. With a PVR you can still record enough good stuff to not need cable.


In FL they moved everything to Digital INCLUDING the OTA Channels. And then they give you two "free" boxes. Even my digital TV won't pick up the signal without the box.
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

digital_silence wrote:
They all will probably serve you another 20 years until the tubes eventually degrade naturally...

Component getting loose... wish the faults on all those modern "skinny" ones would be of that order of complexity... Smile

Sometimes when I look at the reliability of the current TV designs, that makes me wonder whether that was actually done on purpose, just to be able to make another fortune on selling the replacement boards to the service centres (none of the manufacturers provide the support or spare parts supply on the component level - they all train their techos to diagnose and replace the whole modules only... and most of the Service Manuals come with no or very limited schematics)

Didn't Napoleon say something like: " Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence"
Fish Caps can be blamed on the EPA - they are biodegradable. They leak and deteriorate with age and heat.

BGA chips are the fault of companies like T.I. because they are easy to install (but impossible to field resolder). They pop off the board as the circuit boards flex with heat and age. People who build TVs don't own the technology. People who own the tech, don't build any retail products. Companies who build the sets have to use the technology provided even if they don't work long-term. A deliberately mis-interpreted survey allows a belief that all TVs get replaced every 7 years.

No-lead solder was demanded by the EU. It fractures with age and forms "tin whiskers" randomly.

Board replacement rather than repair became the norm when sets got too big to bring to the shop and circuit designs made chassis pulls unworkable.

Most of the above problems occur with age regardless of usage so a 5 year old board, even if unused will probably not work long, if at all.

Since no one makes new boards for old sets, once they run out, the set becomes unrepairable. Zenith did manufacture new boards - the added cost put them out of business.

Lifespan of the new sets - about 5 years: analog CRT - 15 to 20 years.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A friend of mine has a big screen Mitsubishi WD-52725 which has started to go on the blink, after being on for a few minutes it will shut off and the power light will blink. So I did some research and found that it's not even worth trying to fix, which means this set is going to take up a lot of landfill space! I'm going to give this friend one of my CRTs as a replacement! Smile
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mr_d_p_gumby
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
BGA chips are the fault of companies like T.I. because they are easy to install (but impossible to field resolder). They pop off the board as the circuit boards flex with heat and age. People who build TVs don't own the technology. People who own the tech, don't build any retail products. Companies who build the sets have to use the technology provided even if they don't work long-term. A deliberately mis-interpreted survey allows a belief that all TVs get replaced every 7 years.

No-lead solder was demanded by the EU. It fractures with age and forms "tin whiskers" randomly.
I hear you. Thanks to thie chip maker's decisions, we have some chips in our products that have a heatsink pad under the IC that uses the PCB itself as a heatsink. Practically impossible to get soldered (with lead-free solder, of course) even in manufacturing. Don't even think about trying to replace the chip by hand.
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digital_silence



Joined: 22 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

zaphod7501 wrote:
Didn't Napoleon say something like: " Never ascribe to malice what can be explained by incompetence"
Fish Caps can be blamed on the EPA - they are biodegradable. They leak and deteriorate with age and heat.

BGA chips are the fault of companies like T.I. because they are easy to install (but impossible to field resolder). They pop off the board as the circuit boards flex with heat and age. People who build TVs don't own the technology. People who own the tech, don't build any retail products. Companies who build the sets have to use the technology provided even if they don't work long-term. A deliberately mis-interpreted survey allows a belief that all TVs get replaced every 7 years.

No-lead solder was demanded by the EU. It fractures with age and forms "tin whiskers" randomly.

Board replacement rather than repair became the norm when sets got too big to bring to the shop and circuit designs made chassis pulls unworkable.

Most of the above problems occur with age regardless of usage so a 5 year old board, even if unused will probably not work long, if at all.

Since no one makes new boards for old sets, once they run out, the set becomes unrepairable. Zenith did manufacture new boards - the added cost put them out of business.

Lifespan of the new sets - about 5 years: analog CRT - 15 to 20 years.

I take it as we are in a violent agreement that if Apollo11 was to be built today, Neil and Buzz would never make it to the headlines (or, at least, not to the glorious ones.... :-)))

Coming back on-topic: Can you get that Service Manual for Rob, going by his set chassis No?
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digital_silence



Joined: 22 May 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mr_d_p_gumby wrote:
we have some chips in our products that have a heatsink pad under the IC that uses the PCB itself as a heatsink. Practically impossible to get soldered (with lead-free solder, of course) even in manufacturing. Don't even think about trying to replace the chip by hand.

Done one recently on the Y-buffer board of the Plasma TV!

The trick is to cut off all the pins of the blown-up chip with the scalpel first, holding the scalpel blade in the horizontal plane (or you are running the risk of cutting the pads), then heat up the "quartered" body and remove it.
I have also seen this get done properly, without damaging the chip, but that was done using the IR-desoldering station.
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 8:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
A friend of mine has a big screen Mitsubishi WD-52725 which has started to go on the blink, after being on for a few minutes it will shut off and the power light will blink. So I did some research and found that it's not even worth trying to fix, which means this set is going to take up a lot of landfill space! I'm going to give this friend one of my CRTs as a replacement! Smile

Those had lots of bad caps on inaccessible circuit boards. Even after replacing all of them you still only have about a 40% chance of it working. I have one in a beer case. (after teardown)
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I take it as we are in a violent agreement that if Apollo11 was to be built today, Neil and Buzz would never make it to the headlines (or, at least, not to the glorious ones.... Smile))

A number of computer problems on some space missions were the result of "tin whiskers" resulting from the no lead solder. They removed the boards, brushed them off with toothbrushes, put then back in and proceeded. Everything going to military and aerospace gets re-leaded now.

Quote:
Coming back on-topic: Can you get that Service Manual for Rob, going by his set chassis No?

If he needs it, I can get it.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't need the service manual right now, but if it's not that much trouble to get it, might be nice to have it for future use. But don't use up any favors getting it as it's not needed now.
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zaphod7501



Joined: 02 Aug 2004
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Location: Peoria Illinois

PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2010 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

digital_silence wrote:

Done one recently on the Y-buffer board of the Plasma TV!

The trick is to cut off all the pins of the blown-up chip with the scalpel first, holding the scalpel blade in the horizontal plane (or you are running the risk of cutting the pads), then heat up the "quartered" body and remove it.
I have also seen this get done properly, without damaging the chip, but that was done using the IR-desoldering station.

Those are actually conventional ICs. Often the board literally burns up under the chip.

BGA stands for ball grid array. There are no wire leads. It is soldered with hundreds of tiny solder balls underneath the chip. The chip won't flex but the circuit board will. I have seen them literally POP off the board.
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