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The future of JP1 in the 64-bit world
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mdavej
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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 11:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be a ray of hope on the 64-bit front. I just noticed THIS on the Delcom site. They have apparently changed their driver architecture to be more like FTDI using their new Generation II chip. HERE is a migration doc that may be useful to the experts. And HERE's the driver and DLL manual download page.
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Tommy Tyler
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This announcement by Delcom just may be a day late, considering the fact that JP1 remotes are dying out. I understand enough of the migration app note to realize the Generation II chip is not a drop-in replacement for Generation I, but I don't know how difficult the software changes to IR would be. I've lost track of who's working on what, but I don't think mathdon has gotten into the nitty gritty of the JP1 com routines in IR. This could be another interchangeability nightmare for us if changing the software would require two different versions of IR, or perhaps worse yet another interface configuration parameter for the poor user to select.

Until someone steps forward with a plan to DO something with the Generation II chip software (I won't hold my breath) I will assume it's not practical to try and accommodate it at this late date. Therefore I will continue providing interfaces with Generation I chips. Actually, there's no economical advantage to using Generation II, since it retains the same inflated price as Generation I.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Fri May 29, 2009 11:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with your assessment Tommy, I wouldn't bother inventing a new interface and asking for the programs to change for the new chip. Even though there are still plenty of JP1 (EEPROM) users out there, most already have cables and are not likely to upgrade just because there's a new chip.
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Capn Trips
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 01, 2010 11:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So am I correct that from the above string I can conclude that it is EXPECTED that I cannot get my JP1 (EEPROM) USB interface to work with my Vista 64 laptop?

And moreover, it is expected to remain that way?

Crying or Very sad

(I suppose that Windows 7 is out of the question)
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am now also in the market for a new cable as I now have a new laptop that has the 64-bit version of Windows Vista installed (and I will be upgrading it to Windows 7 as soon as the CD arrives).

Looking at the Delcom site it appears that they have source code for some of their apps available. Therefore, would it be possible to create our own 64 bit driver using any of the source code that they have provided?

Alternatively, if Tommy were to consider inventing a new cable using the Gen II chip, do we know what sort of software changes would be needed to the IO applications?
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Tommy Tyler
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 7:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread really lays out all the facts concerning the problem of using IR with USB JP1 (EEPROM) Interfaces, now that Delcom has given up on any further upgrades to their proprietary driver beyond Vista32 by replacing their Generation 1 chip with Generation 2. JP1 remotes are absolutely obsolete, so the combination of a JP1 remote and Vista64 represents dual obsolescence. Expending time and effort to support that combination makes no sense. But Win7 seems to have a future, and there we face a dilema. Do we condemn JP1 remotes to live out their twilight years being nursed along on older PCs, or do we see if there is some way to migrate to Win7 short of creating yet another version of IR, thereby extending their life well beyond that of the remote itself? There are a lot of JP1's out there, including Rob's, and many will probably go on working for a few more years. It is ironical that the Generation 1 and 2 chips are pin-for-pin identical, and the HID driver would immediately get us down the road on Win7 and Vista64. I have said that extensive changes to IR code would be required to upgrade to Generation 2, but I really don't know that, and could be talking through my hat. I wish someone would call my bluff on this. I've also said we do not want to change IR (unless it is the simplest of transparent changes) and I think there is general agreement on that. But does anyone among us want to stay in bed with Delcom? They may have gotten rid of their driver problems with HID, but what about bugs in Generation 2?

I've been thinking about the fact that our IR software speaks two "dialects" of USB: Delcom (for JP1) and FTDI (for JP1.2/3) Suppose we leave the Delcom stuff as is for those users with old model JP1 interfaces (thereby relegating them to non-Vista64 and non-Win7 computers) and design a new interface that looks to the computer like a JP1.2/3 (Flash) interface, but which looks to the remote like a JP1 (EEPROM) interface. Hardware-wise I'm thinking either: (1) an FTDI USART chip in front of a PIC or ATMEL processor that does the serial-to-I2C conversion and handles remote handshaking; or, (2) a PIC or ATMEL processor that does it all, in which case we could go with the HID driver. Either approach would be cost competitive with using the Delcom chip. This doesn't sound like rocket science to me, but then it never does to those who don't know how to do it. Major issue: Flash uploading is in large packets of data, whereas EEPROM uploading is limited to 8 or 16 bytes per packet, with a pause while that packet is transferred from a receive buffer into the EEPROM. Are there simple handshake signals that would enable the interface to control the data transfer rate to accommodate this, without problematic changes to the IR software?

If anyone reading this with PIC or ATMEL programming experience is looking for a nice little project that will endear him (or her, Vicky) to the JP1 forum, I will volunteer to help with defining objectives, digging up specs, and all hardware chores, including prototypes for development. Also if any of the MCU gurus like Mike or Gary or Kevin are reading this maybe they will jump in here and tell us what is really possible or practical.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 9:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If I understand how the programs were separated a while back, the changes won't be to the IR program itself, they will be to the I/O routine that was developed a while ago. As far as IR is concerned, as long as it receives, and can send, the "EEPROM" image, it doesn't care about the interface itself.

I think it would be great to cut Delcom out of the picture.
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Tommy Tyler
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob wrote:
As far as IR is concerned, as long as it receives, and can send, the "EEPROM" image, it doesn't care about the interface itself.

True, but IR only knows two ways to send and receive the image. One way is directly in I2C, but it can only do that by bit-banging a serial or parallel port, so that's out. The other way is serially through the USB port using proprietary Delcom commands. That's why I think something must change, unless the interface emulates Delcom. But that would put us right back where we are, using the Delcom driver.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know if the old JP1 (EEPROM) I/O commands are still in IR.exe, but the serial stuff was all broken out into a separate program a while back. So, even if the EEPROM stuff is still in there, the fact that it uses a separate routine for the Flash stuff means that it shouldn't be too difficult to make it use a separate routine for all I/O.

The trick, of course, will be writing that new routine or modifying the existing routine to handle whatever new chip that you might select.
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mr_d_p_gumby
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 06, 2010 10:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy Tyler wrote:
...but IR only knows two ways to send and receive the image. One way is directly in I2C, but it can only do that by bit-banging a serial or parallel port, so that's out.
Hi Tommy, mind if I borrow your hat so I can talk through it too?

You say bit-banging is out, but is that really true for the serial JP1 interface? If the FTDI chip truly emulates a serial port, then it must support reading & writing of the handshake lines. That only leaves the question of how it handles setting the TXD line high. IIRC, I thought the FTDI chips had a few extra GPIO lines available; maybe one of them could possibly stand in for the TXD if needed. True, we'd have to alter our software slightly to do the reset via a GPIO instead of TXD, but would that be a major task?

OK, you can have your hat back now. Razz
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 7:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tommy,
I have managed to program PICs for various one-off projects - it might be possible to use a 12F629 and bit-bang at rates up to 115.2k and use the remaining pins to handle I2C or two-wire. However, it is much easier to use something like 18F1220 in the development stage, more ports, the UART is built-in and interfaces directly to FTDI. I am not using handshake signals, and have not had any issues with garbled data.

Writing/reading EEPROMs is pretty tolerant in terms of (100KHz) clock timing. The only catch I see is that they must be written one page at a time, which in most cases is 32 bytes. Writing one byte at a time is painfully slow.

Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Delcom or JP1 or IR.exe to speak more definitively, and I do not own any JP1 remotes. More input needed.......
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Tommy Tyler
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For a parallel port, IR sends the clock signal (SCL) by alternately setting and clearing data bit 1 of the 8-bit port, and sends the data signal (SDA) by setting or clearing data bit 0. It receives SDA by reading bit 7 of the status register.

For a serial port, IR sends SCL by alternately setting and clearing the RTS control line, and sends SDA by setting or clearing the DTR control line. It receives SDA by reading the CTS control line.

The reason I said bit-banging is out is: (1) parallel ports and their various registers are non-existant in Vista or Win7, so there's no way to access the signals; (2) It's true that the virtual COM port of a USB device looks like a serial port to the PC, but trying to read and write with the RTS, DTR, and CTS control lines is impossibly slow because of the way USB only gives the port a chance to read or write its control lines every 100mS. It would take 100mS to detect each change in state of the SCL or SDA lines, which would provide a baud rate of about one byte every 3.3 seconds, or over an hour to upload or download.

Is there a way to use the I2C signals generated by IR that I'm not seeing?
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thomas wrote:
Unfortunately, I don't know enough about Delcom or JP1 or IR.exe to speak more definitively, and I do not own any JP1 remotes. More input needed.......

Hi Thomas, if you're willing to get your hands dirty and help us out with this effort, I'll send you a JP1 (EEPROM) remote that you can use for testing. What is your skill set? I assume you can help do some of the programming needed to communicate with the chip, but would you also be able to build test cables?

If you can't build test cables yourself, I checked with Tommy and he would be willing to send you prototypes to test with.
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Last edited by The Robman on Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total
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Thomas



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello Robman (Sweet Home Chicago),
Yes, I have enough skill to build, wire, program, etc. Only issue is soldering surface-mount components, getting to be too tiny for my eyesight, LOL.

Right now I am still collecting info. I have completed several PIC projects to read and write I2C and two-wire EEPROMs. The way I understand it, flash memory is accessed like TTL level serial port. The JP1 EEPROM, being a separate chip, is accessed in a more classical I2C mode. clock and data lines.

I need to study FTDI chips to see if they can be made to switch RTS/CTS outputs fast enough for our purposes. Then see what IR.exe in JP1 mode outputs via USB through the FTDI drivers, if anything. Since I haven't done this before, or even studied IR.exe or the JP1 hardware much, it might take me a while.

In the long run, it might be easier to modify the IR.exe code.

But I'm game to have a look - it's pretty wintry right now, not much golfing. Don't send that remote yet, but please tell me the IDs of the common EEPROM chips so I can get datasheets. Thanks.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 07, 2010 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you're building a test interface you don't need to use surface mount parts, you'd be better off using a solderless breadboard so you can make changes. We should save the surface mount parts for when we start building actual prototypes.

I think you should approach this without regard for what IR.exe currently does, your goal should be to read the data from a remote with an EEPROM and then write it back again. Ideally this should end up in a DLL file that IR.exe will simply use to interface with the remotes.

Most remotes use 2k "24C16" type chips, but some remotes have chips larger than 2k, such as the 4k "24C32". I mention this because the read/write routines are different for chips that are 4k and up.
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