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JP1 Remotes
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DavidEC2955
Joined: 26 Sep 2003
Posts: 143
Location: Kansas
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 Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 4:23 am Post subject: IRHelp File & VISTA |
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| The current IRHelp.ZIP file is not in a format supported by VISTA with out the need to download a VISTA version of the HELP display program.. Also the this help file seems to need some updating any way... |
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vickyg2003
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Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sun May 24, 2009 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| David, IRhelp was a file that I started as a newbie trying to make sense of all the JP1 stuff. It never really got finished, because I came distracted with extenders. Now that Graham has added the help feature to IR8, the file really has become more important, and updating the help file to work with IR8 is on my list of things to do. However, there is no plan to take it out of its current hlp format, simply because CHM files are a headache to maintain. If you'd like to take on the task of updating help, I can pass along the RTF files used to create the hlp file. |
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WagonMaster
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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| vickyg2003 wrote: | | David, IRhelp was a file that I started as a newbie trying to make sense of all the JP1 stuff. It never really got finished, because I came distracted with extenders. Now that Graham has added the help feature to IR8, the file really has become more important, and updating the help file to work with IR8 is on my list of things to do. However, there is no plan to take it out of its current hlp format, simply because CHM files are a headache to maintain. If you'd like to take on the task of updating help, I can pass along the RTF files used to create the hlp file. |
Hi Vicky,
First off, let me say "Thank you!" for your excellent work in generating the IRHelp file. I'm still very new to the JP1 scene and I haven't had any time to really exercise all the neat capabilities of my remote control, but I can see that your information, even if starting to need updates, is very helpful.
One thing I noticed quite a while ago and was planning to mention later on (before seeing this thread, that is) is that under Linux+Wine, the IRHelp file doesn't render correctly for many of the help topics. I haven't done anywhere near an exhaustive list, but, for example, the 'Tools' section/topic doesn't appear correctly at all while the 'Connecting' section/topic appears mostly intact.
Other Windows Help files for other applications run under Linux+Wine seem to render perfectly, so I don't think it's a Linux or Wine problem.
I don't know much about the Windows Help File format and related issues, but if you could make the RTF files available in the forum's File section somewhere, I'd really like to take a look sometime later to see if I can figure out why IRHelp won't render some topics under Linux+Wine.
Thanks for any files/ideas/guidance you might provide!
Regards,
Bill |
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Mark Pierson
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Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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| WagonMaster wrote: | | I don't know much about the Windows Help File format and related issues... |
Nor do I but I just had this thought: might it be better to use an HTML format for the help file? That would eliminate any of the rendering and Vista problems and make the help file more universal.
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WagonMaster
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 3:52 pm Post subject: |
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| Mark Pierson wrote: | | WagonMaster wrote: | | I don't know much about the Windows Help File format and related issues... |
Nor do I but I just had this thought: might it be better to use an HTML format for the help file? That would eliminate any of the rendering and Vista problems and make the help file more universal. |
That's a good thought. I much prefer open, universal formats, but I didn't want to make needless work for Vicky. However, although it might take me a while to get around to it, I'd gladly help in the conversion from the (dying, and probably unsupported) WinHelp format to HTML, assuming Vicky was OK with that. Since 'IR.exe' already has 2 "Help" menu entries which spawn a browser, having another one for the "Help" file in HTML format seems logical to me.
Bill |
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vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 4:38 pm Post subject: |
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Bill, the topics that don't render, don't render because they were never finished.
The whole point of doing this in HLP format was because it was a small, self-contained file. When doing CHM=HTML format, you end up with a splintered mess (or at least I do). Even if you combined it into one huge html file, all the pictures with their hotsposts are seperate files. That's fine if its webhosted, but if its downloaded it can get corrupted by people not overwriting all the files....
I suspect there are some freebie CHM compilers that would read a standard Help project and convert it to CHM, I know that the wretchedly expensive Robohelp didn't have any problems with old HPJ's.
Bill I'll be happy to hand off the project to you. I did this as a newbie, and now that I'm more experienced I see I had some incorrect notions. |
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Mark Pierson
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Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| vickyg2003 wrote: | | That's fine if its webhosted |
That's another option, especially since it could be linked to when providing assistance to others.
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WagonMaster
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| vickyg2003 wrote: | | Bill, the topics that don't render, don't render because they were never finished. |
Sorry, Vicky... I wasn't clear on this. The topics that don't render under Linux+Wine render perfectly under W98 and WinXP. For example, the aforementioned "Tools" topic (which has the header "JP1 Tools") renders fine, showing several pages of info, under W98se and WinXP. That same topic generates a broken display when viewing the help file under Linux+Wine:
But, as I said, other Windows apps that use the old WinHelp format render their help pages fine under Linux+Wine, so I think it might be something in the IRHelp RTF files that Linux+Wine doesn't like.
And, actually, the only page with virtually nothing on it (i.e. no meaningful content, under any OS) is the "Glossary" page, as far as I can see.
| vickyg2003 wrote: | | The whole point of doing this in HLP format was because it was a small, self-contained file. When doing CHM=HTML format, you end up with a splintered mess (or at least I do). Even if you combined it into one huge html file, all the pictures with their hotsposts are seperate files. That's fine if its webhosted, but if its downloaded it can get corrupted by people not overwriting all the files.... |
Just to be clear, I'm not advocating (and I don't think Mark was advocating) CHM in any way, shape, or form. Actually, I'd envision it as a simple help "tree" (0 or more levels deep) of HTML files and PNG images, all of which would be zipped up and unzipped with the IR.exe distribution, so that all the files/images would always be available. I don't see any need to bring the (proprietary) CHM format into the JP1 camp at all, especially as we're striving to make the project more cross-platform. I know you're not advocating CHM either, I just wanted to make my position clear.
| vickyg2003 wrote: | | I suspect there are some freebie CHM compilers that would read a standard Help project and convert it to CHM, I know that the wretchedly expensive Robohelp didn't have any problems with old HPJ's. |
I'd briefly encountered CHM a couple of years ago and came away thinking, "What the heck are they [Microsoft] thinking?". IIRC, it seemed like useless layering. Another proprietary lock-in scheme for something that should be universal and simple. As a long-time GNU/Linux user, I don't have much use for CHM or any convoluted wrapper on a simple standard like HTML. (Sorry for the rant.)
| vickyg2003 wrote: | | Bill I'll be happy to hand off the project to you. I did this as a newbie, and now that I'm more experienced I see I had some incorrect notions. |
I'm not really qualified to update the actual content of the IRHelp file at this point, since I'm spending most of my JP1 time dealing with the library code and related issues and I've had no time to actually use my remote and other cool JP1 features. I was mostly considering volunteering to convert from WinHelp to plain, simple HTML. But, given time, maybe I could update the actual content too. If you make the RTF files (and whatever else is involved with the WinHelp content) available, I'd gladly take a look and see if it's something I'd volunteer to tackle.
Regards,
Bill |
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Mark Pierson
Expert
Joined: 03 Aug 2003
Posts: 3017
Location: Connecticut, USA
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 5:50 pm Post subject: |
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| WagonMaster wrote: | | (and I don't think Mark was advocating) CHM in any way, shape, or form. |
I wasn't! 
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vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Wagonmaster, that picture was worth 10,000 words. My Tools topic on my machine said "Under Consruction" and has all sorts of garbage, which made me realize I don't have the current files on this win2k machine because the files bloat when I do pictures on this machine, but they are tiny when I use the XP machine. The rendering problem means I have a bad tag in the file and the program you are using is being picky. These are really difficult to locate.
So when I get control of the XP machine, I'll make sure to get the files off that.
| Quote: | | I'm not really qualified to update the actual content of the IRHelp file at this point, since I'm spending most of my JP1 time dealing with the library code and related issues and I've had no time to actually use my remote and other cool JP1 features. |
It sounds like you have a bad case of JP1-fever too. I know, I just got around to doing my remotes for my new setups after 2 months of living here! My family just keeps saying that they are "the shoemaker's children". |
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WagonMaster
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 7:41 pm Post subject: |
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| vickyg2003 wrote: | | Wagonmaster, that picture was worth 10,000 words. |
Glad to hear that, especially since, being a dial-up modem user, I almost didn't bother. 
| vickyg2003 wrote: | The rendering problem means I have a bad tag in the file and the program you are using is being picky. These are really difficult to locate.
So when I get control of the XP machine, I'll make sure to get the files off that. |
OK, I understand. After you locate the proper files, if you decide you'd like my help finding bad tags, I'd do my best to assist. I think my old Borland C/C++ compiler probably has a WinHelp compiler, but I don't recall ever using it as I was never much of a Windows developer.
Is it your preference to continue with the WinHelp format? Or would you consider a change to basic (non-CHM) HTML? Or would you prefer me to stop nagging you about it? Just curious, not expecting a final answer now.
| vickyg2003 wrote: | | It sounds like you have a bad case of JP1-fever too. |
Sadly true.
Bill |
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vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 9:55 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Is it your preference to continue with the WinHelp format? Or would you consider a change to basic (non-CHM) HTML? |
I chose the HLP format for its size and ease of integrating with software. If I had to chose another format, I'd go for PDF over HTML. PDF holds several advantages over HLP. I'd have more control over the formatting, I could do links, and I'd still have a self contained system. |
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WagonMaster
Joined: 16 Apr 2009
Posts: 361
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| Posted: Tue May 26, 2009 11:12 pm Post subject: |
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| vickyg2003 wrote: | | If I had to chose another format, I'd go for PDF over HTML. |
If you mean PDF as the native (source) document format (and not just as the final output format), that would effectively rule out as helpers all those people (including me) who have no utilities to manipulate (or experience manipulating) PDF files as the source document. Personally, I'd prefer something whose source can be manipulated without special (often $$$ -- the cheapest version of Adobe Acrobat is $299 [$99 just for the upgrade!]) utilities and then, if desired, auto-translated into PDF as the final output format. But I understand your concerns and if native PDF source it winds up being, then I'll learn to live with it as I await your updates.
Bill |
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vickyg2003
Site Admin
Joined: 20 Mar 2004
Posts: 7073
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed May 27, 2009 6:30 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If you mean PDF as the native (source) document format (and not just as the final output format), that would effectively rule out as helpers all those people (including me) who have no utilities to manipulate (or experience manipulating) PDF files as the source document. Personally, I'd prefer something whose source can be manipulated without special (often $$$ -- the cheapest version of Adobe Acrobat is $299 [$99 just for the upgrade!]) utilities and then, if desired, auto-translated into PDF as the final output format. But I understand your concerns and if native PDF source it winds up being, then I'll learn to live with it as I await your updates. |
All valid points. I don't want to "own" this application. Software costs can be prohibitive. That was part of the reason for going with HELP, it was available as a free download.
On the other hand, I had to buy a copy of Acrobat to do a job, so I've got the software available, and I like the look of the output and its cross platform usability. But I've only done minor PDF manipulation, so I have no idea how much work it would be to get the kind of results that I'd like to see. I'd like to keep the source documents in Word, but again that's not universally available.
I'll definately look into this. |
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