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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then could I suggest that you delete the automated diagnosis logic and just let the user select ODD or EVEN?
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not as simple as that. That would require a substantial rewrite, as Vyrolan's code is very convoluted. It may come to that in the end, but first I want to try and fix what is there rather than rewrite the bi-phase stuff completely.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure thing, I understand. Will you be able to add the controls to the Timing Summary screen too?
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, I've found the bug (or should I say a bug?) in the automated analysis logic and now, as far as I can tell, all the Keyboard signals are correctly analysed. I think that with this bug fix, if there are both EVEN and ODD valid bi-phase analyses then they will both the found and the user can select between them in the analysis drop-down. But the fact that with no user input at all, clicking the Timing Summary button gives the correct bi-phase analysis for all the Keyboard signals makes the automated analysis worthwhile.

I should shortly have something for you to test that not only includes this bug fix, but allows you to convert any analysis, raw or bi-phase, into a binary string (or a string of values 0-3 for quad or 0-F for XMP).

Edit: I hadn't seen your post, Rob, when I wrote that. There will be additional controls on the Timing Summary screen but fine tuning of individual signals will still need the Advanced Details panel. BTW The binary string stuff, I forgot to say, is on the Timing Summary screen and applies simultaneously to all signals on that screen.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 20, 2017 2:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds good, I will check it out when you post it. Thanks Graham.
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have now posted build 3 of RMIR v2.05 to the SVN development folder. It contains just one file, a jar file to replace that in build 2.

Build 3 gives a substantial enhancement to the Timing Summary of the Learned Signals tab, as well as fixing a few bugs in learned signals editing. The Timing Summary display now has a new table on the left side, with two columns, Burst Pair and Coding. The summary panel has two display types, Raw and Analyzed and two display modes, Data and Coded. Raw shows every burst pair as learned, Analyzed tests each signal to see if it can be interpreted as bi-phase, and if so then it splits burst pairs as needed to show in bi-phase form. Data mode shows all burst pairs as timings, Coded mode replaces burst pairs by the string given in the Coding table where one is given. Uncoded bursts are still displayed as timings.

The Burst Pair column of the Coding table is automatically filled in with an ordered list of all the distinct burst pairs in the main display. The Coding column is for the user to give a string to replace that burst pair in Coded mode. That will normally be 0 or 1 for binary coding but you can use 0, 1, 2, 3 or 00 01 10 11 for quad coding and 0-F or 0000-1111 for base 16 coding. Or anything else you feel like using. For bi-phase signals the values 0 and 1 are pre-assigned but they can be edited if needed. For other signals the values need to be added by the user.

The Round To box is now accompanied by a Parity drop-down with values Default, Even and Odd. The values in these two boxes override the defaults, provided that they give a valid decode for the signal concerned. For signals other than bi-phase this is always so, but bi-phase signals will often not change when these settings are changed as many value combinations do not lead to a valid bi-phase decode. In particular a change of parity from Even to Odd, or vice versa, seldom has an effect. For an example of a bi-phase signal where these boxes do affect the decode, use the New button to add the following learned signal:

Code:
00 E0 06 05 66 00 91 00 9B 00 9B 01 30 01 27 01 30 00 91 00 9A 01 30 00 9A 8F 01 26 01 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 11 15

Open the Timing Summary with this signal included and select the Anzlyzed Data display. The signal will be displayed as an Even-mode bi-phase signal. Change the Parity box to Odd. The signal still displays as Even, as with the default rounding it does not have a valid Odd decode. Now enter 300 in the Round To box. The signal will change to Odd-mode bi-phase display and will switch back and forth between Even and Odd as you change the parity setting. With either setting you can select the Coded mode to see the signal as a binary string.

With these facilities I think it should seldom be necessary to use the Advanced Details display of the editing panel, but this is of course still available for fine tuning. Settings made there override the Round To and Parity boxes of the Timing Summary display so individual signals can be fine tuned and the result preserved on the summary panel.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a great start Graham but it could still use some tweaks.

To help with this, I took jriker1's RMIR file and deleted all the other learns. Here's a copy, so that we're both looking at the same thing:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=14698

There are 2 learns here that I can't get to decode properly using RMIR, those being the #8 (key 3) and #10 (key 1) learns. The problem with each learn is that they're incomplete, the first part of the signal is missing, but even so, I should be able to switch to the "wrong" decode type (ie, switch to "even", even though these are "odd") and it should work, but changing the selection doesn't appear to make any difference, in the individual button screen that is. In the main Timing Summary screen, RMIR doesn't even attempt to decode #8. Also, the presence of a lead-out time needs to reset the ";" breaks, here I am seeing "-78000 +2700; " on #10, which should never happen, the ";" needs to come after the leadout and then the next time is the start of the next pair.

Would it be possible, for learns that won't decode properly, for RMIR to switch to a method where it starts from the end instead of the beginning, so ODD/EVEN would be deciding whether the leadout is on its own and the positive time in front of it is the end of a pair, or the last negative time is buried in the leadout and should be separated?

Regarding the UI for the Timing Summary screen. My preference would be for the Raw panel to really be raw, with no adjustments, I don't see the need for it to only include non biphase adjustments, and the Analyzed panel to include biphase adjustments. The for Parity, I would suggest the options be:
1. Regular (ie, non bi-phase)
2. Bi-phase Even
3. Bi-phase Odd

I don't know what "default" is, but if that's the default bi-phase option, then that could be a 4th option.

Given that the next thing that I would do, once I have generated a "coded" pattern is cut&paste it over to Excel, to strip off the excess columns and break out the data into bytes, would it be possible to have an option to save this data as a .csv or .xls file?

Oh yeah, there is an important column of data missing from the Timing Summary screen. In the Learned Signals tab, the first column is called "Name" and, in this case it contains the function name of the learned button (as opposed to the physical button that it got learned to) and that's missing from the Timing Summary tab. So, I tried a work around of "copying" the Name column and pasting it into the Notes column, but that didn't work.

Would it be possible to have the "There are two displays..." thing presented in some other fashion where it can be clicked away never to be seen again? It seems to be that this takes up valuable screen real estate and it's not needed anymore once it's been read and digested.

Now, regarding the individual button UI (ie, Learned Signal Details pop-up), I think there is a bug here. Look at the first button (key 0) as this is a longer learn. If you click on "Show Advanced Details" it brings up a screen that is too big to fit on my laptop screen, so I grabbed the top edge with the mouse and dragged it to reduce the size, however this removed the bi-phase controls and I couldn't figure out a way to bring them back other than closing the screen and re-selecting it. But there's no way that I can find to get both the bi-phase controls *and* the buttons at the bottom to appear at the same time. If you're unable to re-create this, I'll take some screen shots and post them.
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 5:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick reply to a few of your points, Rob. The two learns that don't decode properly, I hope to be able to fix. No time now to look at Vyrolan's code but I can't see off-hand why it should not work. I should be able to add the Name column. The over-long Advanced Details needs a scroll bar when it is too big, again I should be able to do that. On the Parity question, I think the real issue is that IR.exe and RMIR behave differently when you ask them to do the impossible. Both are OK with the possible. By impossible, I mean parse a uni-polar signal as bi-polar, parse a bi-polar signal with a rounding that does not permit bi-polar interpretation and other things of this sort. I won't make RMIR behave on this like IR, as that would be a major rewrite of Vyrolan's code that I am not prepared to do. I hope to come up with something you are prepared to use "for real", even if it does work differently from IR.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you have got so far is great, and if that was the final product, I think I could use it, I was just giving user feedback suggestions.

I don't really follow the parity bit, which suggestion was that in response to?
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob, I've done all your suggestions except for two. One is the CSV export, as I don't fully understand how you want it to split. Could you give me a little more detail?

The other is that you want the Parity box to have the same options as the IR "Bi phase" box, that is NO, EVEN, ODD. I can't do that. I don't even understand it. Here are the displays from IR of a signal with each of the three settings:
Code:
NO: +2764 -264 +310 -292 +608 -590 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +608 -590 +310 -292 +608 -290 +308 -608 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +608 -590 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +310 -292 +308 -73218

Code:
EVEN: +2764 -264; +310 -292; +608 -590; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +608 -590; +310 -292; +608 -290; +308 -608; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +608 -590; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +310 -292; +308 -73218;

Code:
ODD: +2764; -264 +310; -292 +608; -590 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +608; -590 +310; -292 +608; -290 +308; -608 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +608; -590 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +310; -292 +308; -73218

The EVEN and ODD displays are not bi-phase, these three are all the same apart from the positions of the semicolons. You can have that in RMIR, it's the Raw signal with parity set to Even or Odd.

If I set the rounding to 300 in IR and select EVEN, I get
Code:
EVEN: +2700 -300; +300 -300; +300 +300; -300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 +300; -300 -300; +300 -300; +300 +300; -300 +300; -300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 +300; -300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -300; +300 -73200;

Better, as the 600's have been split but +300 +300 is not a valid bi-phase burst pair. It's not until I set rounding to 300 and select ODD that I get a valid bi-phase signal.

If you ask Vyrolan's code for a bi-phase decode, it will give you a valid one. It determines a rounding and parity that creates a valid bi-phase signal if there is one. The "Analysed data" is called that rather than "Bi-phase" as it displays a valid bi-phase decode for signals that do have one, and leaves as raw the signals that don't. I just don't understand what it is that IR will give you that RMIR will not. It's just that RMIR works a bit differently. I cannot see that it is taking any control from you on what you can achieve.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mathdon wrote:
Rob, I've done all your suggestions except for two. One is the CSV export, as I don't fully understand how you want it to split. Could you give me a little more detail?

Sure, here's an example of what I'd end up creating...
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=14703

Obviously, the 2 problematic learns would need to be deleted and handled manually, but from here, I would probably split the binary away from the leadin/leadout times, then split it into 8-bit chunks (or whatever split seems logical based on the data).

mathdon wrote:
The other is that you want the Parity box to have the same options as the IR "Bi phase" box, that is NO, EVEN, ODD. I can't do that. I don't even understand it.

You lost me here, which means I probably didn't do a good job of explaining, or we're talking about different things. When you were trying IR.exe, it sounds like you were selecting ODD and EVEN *without* first entering something in the Round To box, which won't work. The bi-phase logic only does anything if you tell it what the base timing code is for the bi-phase signal. As Vicky discovered, even entering 100 won't work if it's a 300 signal. But regardless, I don't think I was asking you to make the RMIR selection work exactly the same as the IR selection.

I see that the RMIR choices are: Default, Even, Odd whereas the IR choices are: NO, EVEN, ODD. So, they're already pretty much the same, the only outstanding question is "what does 'default' mean?".

The only remaining suggestions from me where UI related. I can totally work with RMIR "as is", I was just suggesting visual presentation improvements.

If we're talking at cross-purposes, can you quote my original request that you are really referring to?
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mathdon
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob, I have just uploaded build 4 to the usual RMIR Development folder. There are numerous changes from build 3, too many to mention in detail but they include: the cases with missing lead-in are now handled correctly; the semicolons following a lead-in should now be correct; there is a Save button that saves the summary as a .csv file; the Parity and Round To settings are now independent for the Raw and Analyzed displays. I think it is this last point that led you to say that Raw should really be Raw. A rounding setting in Analyzed was being applied also to Raw if you switched between these two displays.

Anyway, please try it. I think it addresses everything you raised except the Parity box. "Default" for uni-polar signals is the same as "Even", whether in the Raw display (where everything is uni-polar) or the Analyzed display (where signals that RMIR cannot interpret as bi-polar remain shown as uni-polar). "Default" for bi-polar signals is whichever parity RMIR found was needed to allow a bi-polar interpretation. That might vary between signals in the Analyzed display, especially if the learns cover more than one device. Changing the parity setting will rarely have any effect on bi-polar signals as very few such signals allow both an even and an odd parity analysis.

As the final example in my previous post shows, if you select Even in IR for a bi-polar signal that is really Odd, you get invalid burst pairs in which both values are + or both are -. In RMIR it leaves the signal unchanged, so it displays Odd when you select Even if there is no valid Even analysis. In some sense both behaviours are misleading, it is perhaps a personal preference which one would rather see.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Graham, I'll give it a spin now.

Here's the link, for anyone else that wants to try it:
https://sourceforge.net/projects/controlremote/files/RMIRDevelopment/
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm liking this, this is going to be very helpful.

The only minor tweaks that I would recommend are:
1. Give us the ability to dismiss and clear the beginner info at the top of the Timing Summary screen.
2. Make that pop-up screen default to a smaller size, for me it opens taller than my laptop screen, so I have to drag the top down to reduce it, then drag it up so that I can get to the rounding controls. And even after I have re-sized it, if I close it and re-open it, it reverts back to the 'too large' size.
3. The save option is great, the only minor change I would make there is to remove the first 2 heading lines.
4. I just noticed that there isn't a "Delete All" button on the learned tab in RMIR, I use this a lot in IR.exe as it saves having to do a 981-style reset on the remote to clear out the old learns. Also, every time that I download, it asks me to pick an RDF even though the remote hasn't changed. Is there any way that it could keep using the selection that I made last time?
5. When RMIR has figured out the bi-phase stuff itself, it doesn't appear to put the values into the Parity or Round to boxes.
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vickyg2003
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
Also, every time that I download, it asks me to pick an RDF even though the remote hasn't changed. Is there any way that it could keep using the selection that I made last time?
i'd rather have to choose than have it pick the wrong one. I open other peoples files way too often and so always need to choose.

On the other hand I'd really like the "show sling protocols" to remain checked. Every time i need one i have to check the option, close rm, reopen rm. so it is designed to be a persistant setting, it just isn't.
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