Device multiplexing with atlas 3033 extender

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:33 am

I have 6 devices I want to control with this 5 device remote, so obviously I've decided to go the route of using an extender. I have an mp3 player that I've put on the Aud button, but I want to put my receiver on shift-Aud. I've got that working by putting the device code onto phantom 1 and then assigning a macro to shift-Aud. That seems to work.

What I would like to do is have all other devices punch through volume controls to the shift-Aud receiver. How can that be done?

If I'm not mistaken, multiplexing works differently than it did on the 9910 extender I used with my prior remote, although I could be misinterpreting what I see since I didn't use multiplexing with it, and it's been a few years since I did any jp1 changes on that remote. I think in that case I actually got extra device buttons listed on the general tab of IR. That would seem to be a more intuitive approach to multiplexing, at least with regard to what I'm trying to accomplish. It has me curious about the pro's and con's of the 2 different approaches to device multiplexing. But ultimately I'll be happy either way as long as I can accomplish punch through.

Post by **vickyg2003** » Mon May 25, 2009 5:30 am

If I'm not mistaken, multiplexing works differently than it did on the 9910 extender I used with my prior remote, although I could be misinterpreting what I see since I didn't use multiplexing with it, and it's been a few years since I did any jp1 changes on that remote. I think in that case I actually got extra device buttons listed on the general tab of IR. That would seem to be a more intuitive approach to multiplexing, at least with regard to what I'm trying to accomplish. It has me curious about the pro's and con's of the 2 different approaches to device multiplexing. But ultimately I'll be happy either way as long as I can accomplish punch through.

You are mistaken as to what you are seeing. With the 9910 you were seeing a phantom device, which is different than multiplexing. Phantom devices are much preferable to multiplexing because phantom devices can have their own set of keymoves and their own set of HT values (V_Phantom, C_Phantom, P_Phantom....).

Phantom devices are possible if the array that holds the setup codes is bigger than the number of device buttons and if the error checking in the original remote doesn't stop you from using that additional array space. Most remotes don't have this feature.

Multiplexing on the other hand just changes the setup code for a device on the fly.

What I would like to do is have all other devices punch through volume controls to the shift-Aud receiver. How can that be done?

If you want true punch through to a device, it really needs to be a real device, not a phantom device.

I'm not an audiophile, so I don't really understand your equipment setup, but if I'm right, the MP3 device doesn't have its own volume controls and uses punch the receiver to control the volume. If that is true, and if the 3033 extender works the way that most extenders do. I'd set up keymoves on the AUD volume keys that use the receiver setup code. Then have all your other devices use the V_AUD to get your punch through to the receiver.

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 8:43 am

Actually I wasn't mistaken; I just didn't know the right term for what I saw with the 9910.

Too bad that can't be done with the atlas, but you've provided me with a very reasonable workaround, and it works great. Thanks!

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 10:49 am

The problems that I think occur with this multiplexing approach are:

You have to provide a mechanism for switching back - a single macro doesn't give you what you want. You need a second multiplex key to switch it back.
What about key moves? My receiver has a bunch of key moves (shifted keys). I'm assuming the key moves must be placed on the real device and shared between the real device and the multiplexed device. Fortunately my mp3 device doesn't have any shifted keys, but still this is far from ideal.

Just to be clear since I don't think I fully understand what you said, Vicky: It's not just that the phantom devices feature hasn't been implemented in this extender; it's actually technically impossible to implement in an extender for this remote. Do I have that right?

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:23 pm

I use several macros to get both on one key. HERE are the details. I also give an example of putting several devices on one key. If you really want to get creative, you can add pauses for some visual feedback as to what device is active (1 blink is device 1, 2 blinks is device 2, etc.). I've done that kind of thing but it takes a lot a macros. All this is probably overkill in your case, but something to keep in mind if you need more devices in the future.

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:41 pm

Appreciate the creative solution you came up with, but I think I'd rather use the shift-aud approach.

The one problem I'm not sure how to solve, assuming key moves are shared between 2 multiplexed devices, is with my power button. I want to set it up with lkm so a short press does the normal toggle power function, and a long press turns everything off. If I understand correctly, I would have to create key moves for every device's toggle power function (say, shift-power) and call that from the short press part of the lkm definition. But how can I do that with multiplexed devices since I assume they share key moves?

Thinking out loud, I think maybe I'd have to create 2 lkm's - one for when the multiplexed device is active (so it could call a different toggle power key, say xshift-power) and one for every other device (that would call the standard shift-power key).

I think that will work, but are there any better ideas? Man, extenders are very powerful but it's very easy to create an extremely complex IR file! Which gets back to my wish for phantom devices (again, is that technically impossible to add as a feature of this remote's extender?).

Post by **vickyg2003** » Mon May 25, 2009 12:52 pm

The problems that I think occur with this multiplexing approach are:

You have to provide a mechanism for switching back - a single macro doesn't give you what you want. You need a second multiplex key to switch it back.

That's not really a problem. It can be accomplished easy enough with a toadtog or an lkp and a few phantom keys.

What about key moves? My receiver has a bunch of key moves (shifted keys). I'm assuming the key moves must be placed on the real device and shared between the real device and the multiplexed device. Fortunately my mp3 device doesn't have any shifted keys, but still this is far from ideal.

The drawback with multiplexing is that keymoves remain, no matter what the underlying setup code is. That's where phantoms have a huge advantage over multiplexing. For all intents and purposes, a phantom is a real device, it just doesn't have a device key. You can get fancy and have some toad/tog macros that do one thing if you've got the multiplex set to one value and something else if the multiplex is set to the other value, but it takes more skills on your part.

Just to be clear since I don't think I fully understand what you said, Vicky: It's not just that the phantom devices feature hasn't been implemented in this extender; it's actually technically impossible to implement in an extender for this remote. Do I have that right?

That's pretty much true. There is no empty device slot to exploit. Usually this happens when UEI uses the same programming for multiple remotes. For example the same programming is used for the 6820,8820 and 10820 remotes, so the 6 device remote has 4 phantoms, and the 8 device remote has 2 phantoms.

But is this technically impossible? If this were a plain JP1 remote I could say that you have that absolutely right. But the answer isn't quite that absolute in the case of these FLASH chips. There is really nothing that is absolutely impossible with a FLASH chip.

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 1:46 pm

Thanks for helping me understand.

My prior idea didn't work out quite as easily as I thought. First, I had to make a lkp definition for every device (I think that wouldn't be necessary if I could find X_Cancel, but that doesn't seem to exist in this extender). Second, that idea still has the issue of key moves being shared across multiplexed devices.

So you gave me a good idea for solving the second issue - adding toadtog to the mix. Hopefully that will work.

Post by **vickyg2003** » Mon May 25, 2009 2:30 pm

Hmm, I didn't see your other post before.

The one problem I'm not sure how to solve, assuming key moves are shared between 2 multiplexed devices, is with my power button. I want to set it up with lkm so a short press does the normal toggle power function, and a long press turns everything off. If I understand correctly, I would have to create key moves for every device's toggle power function (say, shift-power) and call that from the short press part of the lkm definition. But how can I do that with multiplexed devices since I assume they share key moves?

Thinking out loud, I think maybe I'd have to create 2 lkm's - one for when the multiplexed device is active (so it could call a different toggle power key, say xshift-power) and one for every other device (that would call the standard shift-power key).

I think that will work, but are there any better ideas?

I think I'd explore shift cloaking and x_cancel to solve this. I'm seeing X_cancel, X_Push and X_Pop with this extender which is a very powerful combo. I'm assuming you have discrete OFF's to be able to turn everything off.

Macro FOR POWER
x_TV
phantom1

Setu up the TV Phantom1 to be a LKP

short side
X_cancel
Shift_Power

Long side
X_TV
DiscreteOFF
X_dVD
DiscreteOFF
x_AUD
DiscreteOFF
Phantom1 (where Phantom 1 is a keymove to the multi-plexed receiver)
x_Aux
Discrete OFF
x_Cbl
Discrete OFF
x_Cancel

Now if you are trying to power everything off when you don't have Discrete on/Off's this gets pretty complicated, but if you have the discrete off's this is a macro and one LKP.

If nothing is assigned to the Shift_Power key, the Shift_Power key will do the normal power key.

Man, extenders are very powerful but it's very easy to create an extremely complex IR file! Which gets back to my wish for phantom devices (again, is that technically impossible to add as a feature of this remote's extender?).

You said a mouthful there! I had no idea how complicated or how powerful they are until ElizabethD tested my first extender. She had that thing jumping through hoops, doing all sorts of things I never even thought possible.

Good Luck

TheShanMan · Post by **TheShanMan** » Mon May 25, 2009 4:43 pm

Those are not in my list of keys. I wonder if they inadvertently got removed in the recently released v2.10?

I do have everything working as desired (yes, I have discrete off codes), but those pseudo-keys would come in handy for sure.

Ah! I didn't realize that if I change regular Power to an lkp, the shift-power will still work as the normal toggle power. That is cool! For my 2 aud devices, I thought I was going to have to put toggle power on a non-keymove key (I used pip on/off) in order for the multiplexing to fire the right toggle power command. But if I can just set it to fire the shift-power key, that's even better!

mdavej · Post by **mdavej** » Mon May 25, 2009 6:10 pm

TheShanMan wrote:Those are not in my list of keys. I wonder if they inadvertently got removed in the recently released v2.10?

I think you're right. You can add X_Cancel back to the very end of the [Buttons] section of the RDF. I don't think push/pop were supposed to be left in there. You could add them I guess (in order X_Cancel,X_Push,X_Pop), but I think only the extender authors understand what they do.

unclemiltie · Post by **unclemiltie** » Mon May 25, 2009 9:12 pm

X_Cancel is in the "extender" I just left it out of the RDF (see my other post)

X_Push and X_POP were going to be features that I wanted that would push and pop the current temp device onto a stack to allow for more complicated macros. Someone else did it in another extender and I was asked if I could do it in this one. But I ran out of (choose one) {memory, time, patience} and decided to take them out of the RDF before people started asking questions about what they did.

As for phantoms, I don't think that the Atlas JP1.3 is going to see phantom devices, I looked at it once and found that trying to do something by moving things around crashed the remote. (if I remember correctly, one went very badly)

-bill