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TV/0200 pid-0051 What is it?

 
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johnsfine
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 1:11 pm    Post subject: TV/0200 pid-0051 What is it? Reply with quote

I tried to help someone with a Blaupunkt TV in another forum. It apparently doesn't use the protocol of the Blaupunkt upgrade in the TV folder (that upgrade matches all the Grundig TV's at RC). It apparently is TV/0200, which apparently generates a signal that can't be learned by a Pronto.

If possible, we'd like an IRP file for this, so it can be generated by MakeHex. I might get around to basic investigations (like try to learn from one JP1 remote to another and/or to Tommy's IR receiver) but not today. So I'm mentioning it here in case someone knows what it is or in case Jon (or anyone) wants to take over the task.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is the beginning. The numerals where 1-1 is the first button press, 1-2 the second:

1-1 +584 -664 +584 -1704 + 584 -116316
1-2 +584 -664 +584 -318 + 584 -664 +584 -116316

2-1 +928 -322 +590 -1698 + 590 -116310
2-2 +924 -326 +588 -314 + 588 -660 +588 -116312

3-1 +243 -178 +376 -312 + 586 -1696 +586 -115932
3-2 +244 -178 +376 -311 + 586 -314 +586 -659 +586 -115933

4-1 +366 -322 +1162 -1688 + 594 -116304
4-2 +364 -324 +1152 -310 + 590 -658 +590 -116308

5-1 +1708 -1704 +588 -116306
5-2 +1708 -316 +588 -660 + 588 -116306

6-1 +590 -180 +928 -1710 + 590 -116304
6-2 +588 -182 +924 -326 + 588 -660 +588 -116306

7-1 +244 -392 +902 -1736 + 574 -116320
7-2 +248 -388 +914 -336 + 582 -666 +582 -116310

8-1 +375 -408 +242 -179 + 375 -1696 +585 -115932
8-2 +375 -403 +243 -179 + 375 -312 +585 -660 +585 -115933

9-1 +584 -318 +248 -174 + 360 -1716 +584 -116308
9-2 +584 -318 +248 -174 + 360 -328 +584 -664 +584 -116308

0-1 +366 -1016 +594 -1694 + 594 -116298
0-2 +364 -1018 +590 -312 + 590 -658 +590 -116302

My best guess at the moment is that +TB=1 and -TB=Zero but I can't get a real consistent number of bits. TB =~300 gets close, but it doesn't feel quite right.
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Last edited by jon_armstrong on Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:56 pm; edited 2 times in total
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From a learning remote, or from Tommy's device?

Your results match what the Pronto learned and the report is that what the Pronto learned doesn't work. Of course your data might be perfect and some operator error or other extra issue might be involved in the report that the Pronto learned signals don't work. However, I was hoping to decently investigate the possibility that something else is hiding in the signal.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just re-ran the 0-9 commands in Tommy's analyzer and they are all close except for 3-2 which should be:
+244 -178 +376 -311 +586 -314 +585 -660 +585 -115932

Here is the second run:

1-1 +584 -664 +584 -1704 +584 -116316
1-2 +584 -664 +584 -318 +584 -664 +584 -116316
2-1 +928 -322 +590 -1698 +590 -116310
2-2 +924 -326 +588 -314 +588 -660 +588 -116312
3-1 +243 -178 +376 -312 +586 -1696 +586 -115932
3-2 +244 -178 +376 -311 +586 -314 +586 -659 +586 -115933
4-1 +366 -322 +1162 -1688 +594 -116304
4-2 +364 -324 +1152 -310 +590 -658 +590 -116308
5-1 +1708 -1704 +588 -116306
5-2 +1708 -316 +588 -660 +588 -116306
6-1 +590 -180 +928 -1710 +590 -116304
6-2 +588 -182 +924 -326 +588 -660 +588 -116306
7-1 +244 -392 +902 -1736 +574 -116320
7-2 +248 -388 +914 -336 +582 -666 +582 -116310
8-1 +375 -408 +242 -179 +375 -1696 +585 -115932
8-2 +375 -403 +243 -179 +375 -312 +585 -660 +585 -115933
9-1 +584 -318 +248 -174 +360 -1716 +584 -116308
9-2 +584 -318 +248 -174 +360 -328 +584 -664 +584 -116308
0-1 +366 -1016 +594 -1694 +594 -116298
0-2 +364 -1018 +590 -312 +590 -658 +590 -116302

The first group was actually a combination and there are several commands that the OFA remote won't learn ( 3 and 8 ) from memory. This last group was all done together using Tommy's analyzer.

My results seem consistent enough except for 3-2 which I did again to confirm which version was correct.

BTW, The key presses are in order.

If it wasn't for 3,6,8 and 9 that have some short off times, I would say that the time base is ~300.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 30, 2003 8:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One other thought, it looks like the last On time is always the same. The average message length minus the lead out and final off time is pretty consistently 3400 uS and a time base of 200 uS would be 17 bits, assuming +200=1 and -200=Zero. IIRC, there are several European IR protocols with 17 bits

Here would be the first 17bits transmitted:

1-1 11100011100000000
1-2 11100011100111000
2-1 11111001110000000
2-2 11111001110011100
3-1 10110011100000000
3-2 10110011100111000
4-1 11001111110000000
4-2 11001111110011100
5-1 11111111100000000
5-2 11111111100111000
6-1 11101111100000000
6-2 11101111100111000
7-1 10011111000000000
7-2 10011111001110001
8-1 11001011000000001
8-2 11001011001110001
9-1 11100101100000000
9-2 11100101100111000
0-1 11000001110000000
0-2 11000001110011100
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Ivo



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, I see the discussion here is a lot more technical than on the remote central site (where I started the discussion). Therefore maybe you can use my information. I measured some time ago the IR signal of the original remote and put it into a file:

http://home.hetnet.nl/~ivo/files/blaupunkt.pdf

Maybe some of you can understand this and can judge if this is more or less the same as what the Pronto learns. I don't now for sure but I think the recorded signal was digit 1. And since I use a rather old storage scope the sample rate was nearly enough to see bits, therefore there might be one or two bit mistakes....

Thank you all very much for the effort you're putting into this!!!
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Based on Ivo's results, I would conclude that each On burst is exactly 21 cycles, but it is 21 cycles at varying frequency, so the length of the On changes depending on the average frequency of the cycles within the burst.

The data Ivo captured is sampled just fast enough to see that the frequency is probably changing per cycle, but is not fast enough to see how it is changing. Samples just twice that fast are probably (not defintely) fast enough to see what is really happening.

Tommy's hardware captures the number of cycles in a burst and it captures the exact duration of the burst. From that it infers the frequency of the burst. I forget which of those things it reports (whether it reports those cycle counts and durations directly. whether it reports the frequency of each burst or only the first or only the longest or average of all). If we can get back to cycle count and duration of the bursts, we can confirm a lot of what I would be guessing at from Ivo's results.

Jon tested more samples than Ivo. The 21 cycles per burst rule from Ivo's samples starts to look quite unlikely from some of Jon's other samples. We should take a better look at especially the '5' key to see what is really going on. My wild guess is that the 21 cycle per burst rule does still hold, but at the low end of average frequency Tommy's hardware misses the gap in between two bursts and runs two bursts together (so it's 42 cycles instead of 21) with an even lower inferred frequency (because the gap factors into the inferred frequency). But that's just a wild guess. Do we have any way to check it?

BTW, Pronto hex in 0100 mode can probably be used to specify every cycle independantly and make this exact signal, once we know what the exact signal is. A Pronto NG (TSU3000 etc.) can't do that because its firmware is too slow, but I'm pretty sure the older Prontos can. I hope I'me remember correctly that Ivo has an older one.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an analysis of turning on Tommy's cycle count and measuring the frequency of the on times. I did the calculation for each burst pair:

1-1
584 -661 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -1698 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -115929 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz

1-2
584 -661 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -315 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -661 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -115929 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz

2-1
932 -316 cycles = 33 Freq=35.4KHz
584 -1698 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -115930 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz

2-2
932 -316 cycles = 33 Freq=35.4KHz
583 -316 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
583 -662 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
583 -115930 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz

3-1
244 -178 cycles = 9 Freq=36.9KHz
376 -312 cycles = 13 Freq=34.6KHz
586 -1697 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
585 -115928 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz

3-2
244 -178 cycles = 9 Freq=36.9KHz
376 -311 cycles = 13 Freq=34.6KHz
586 -313 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
586 -659 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
586 -115928 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz

4-1
375 -312 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
1145 -1697 cycles = 41 Freq=35.8KHz
585 -115929 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz

4-2
375 -312 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
1144 -315 cycles = 41 Freq=35.8KHz
585 -660 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
585 -115929 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz


5-1
1703 -1698 cycles = 61 Freq=35.8KHz
584 -115931 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz

5-2
1703 -316 cycles = 61 Freq=35.8KHz
584 -661 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -115931 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


6-1
585 -184 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
929 -1701 cycles = 33 Freq=35.5KHz
582 -115932 cycles = 21 Freq=36.1KHz

6-2
586 -184 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
929 -318 cycles = 33 Freq=35.5KHz
582 -663 cycles = 21 Freq=36.1KHz
582 -115933 cycles = 21 Freq=36.1KHz

7-1
243 -393 cycles = 9 Freq=37.0KHz
932 -1697 cycles = 33 Freq=35.4KHz
585 -115931 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz

7-2
243 -393 cycles = 9 Freq=37.0KHz
932 -315 cycles = 33 Freq=35.4KHz
585 -660 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
584 -115932 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


8-1
375 -659 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
242 -179 cycles = 9 Freq=37.2KHz
375 -1696 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
584 -115933 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


8-2
375 -658 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
243 -179 cycles = 9 Freq=37.0KHz
375 -313 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
584 -661 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz
584 -115933 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


9-1
585 -234 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
242 -180 cycles = 9 Freq=37.2KHz
374 -1696 cycles = 13 Freq=34.8KHz
584 -115934 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


9-2
586 -313 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
244 -178 cycles = 9 Freq=36.9KHz
376 -311 cycles = 13 Freq=34.6KHz
586 -659 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz
586 -115933 cycles = 21 Freq=35.8KHz

0-1
375 -1004 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
585 -1698 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
584 -115935 cycles = 21 Freq=36.0KHz


0-2
375 -1004 cycles = 13 Freq=34.7KHz
585 -314 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
585 -660 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
585 -115935 cycles = 21 Freq=35.9KHz
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, that trashes all my theories.
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jon_armstrong
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 31, 2003 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually drug out my Win98 machine with a scope card and looked at the commands. And there is not much new to report other than nothing out of the ordinary. I did screen captures and put them in a word file in the diagnosis area "scope traces.zip"

I got these straight off my 2104's led and I looked at any evidence of frequency changes (none) any other hidden patterns (none). The ones I chose were just what the commands look like in about the first 5mS where all the information is. All this assumes that UEIC got the protocol right.

Still it may be worth a look in case I missed something obvious.

I still don't get why a Pronto can't learn this and why the equipment wouldn't respond to those learned Pronto commands?
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Ivo



Joined: 31 Dec 2003
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 7:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi,

Could you post the discrete codes which you think should work so I can try them? And are there further other things that I can do to solve this problem?

Thanks,

Ivo
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jon_armstrong wrote:

I got these straight off my 2104's led and I looked at any evidence of frequency changes (none) any other hidden patterns (none). The ones I chose were just what the commands look like in about the first 5mS where all the information is.


I can't see how any of that shows us anything. I don't understand the timescale of those, but it seems pretty clear it is too slow a time scale to be useful. That is consistent with your "5ms" comment.

A scope would be useful for detail of the first 400 microseconds, maybe the first 100 microseconds. (More specifically, we need visible samples just a few microseconds wide) A scope trace on a 5ms scale has to give you exactly the same thing we already know from the JP1 learns and the Pronto learns and Tommy's device.

Am I missing some way to see more in what you sent.
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Ivo



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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe this is what you mean?
http://home.hetnet.nl/~ivo/files/screenshots.zip
I made some screenshots of different timbebase settings of the startpulses.
The file contains 5 jpg pictures (approx. 520kb total zip-file).

If need more or other screenshots just let me know.

Thanks again for helping!

Ivo
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 01, 2004 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those all further support the theory that what the Pronto learned is correct. There is nothing else there than what we already saw. That leaves us short an explanation of why the Pronto learned signals didn't work.
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