Annoying tab behavior - RMIR on Mac

[unclemiltie]

This has been around for quite a while, I was just living with it since my use was so infrequent. But I figured I should report this

RMIR 3.1.5 (yea, it's a bit old), MacOS Sonoma but I saw this back on older versions as well



Open up the device tab

create a new device

Go to the functions tab

Create a bunch of new lines

Start with the first one, fill in the name, tab to the OBC column and type in the OBC

What you will find is that the first character you type is entered into the tex box and then immediately highlighted blue. When you enter the next character it will erase the first one and put in the new one, not highlighted.

So if you want to "tab" to the column and enter "230" you have to enter "x230" where x can be pretty much anything since it will be erased.

If you further tab to the point where you are entering the next function name this too will enter-highlight-erase the first character.

If you put the cursor in the box with the mouse and click this does not happen.


the tab key is convenient for moving among fields and not having to touch the mouse for a large number of entries. People who touch type tend to do this in things like Excel so data entry can be much, much faster.

I don't have a Windows or Linux box to see if the behavior is the same on those.

[Barf]

Which is your JVM? (Help -> About).
Try with another JVM, for example the one included in the MacOS version of IrScrutinizer.

[unclemiltie]

java.version = 1.0.8_065
java.vendor = Oracle Corporation
os.name = Mac OS X
os.arch = x86_64


I've had this issue with Mac OS High Sierra, Catalina, Monterey and now Sonoma, all of which have diferent JVm's in them. I'm pretty sure this was an issue prior to High Sierra but can't really remember.

[unclemiltie]

Also Barf, I don't know how to replace the JVM on MacOS since it comes with the OS when it's installed. How would I test this with another JVM version?

[Barf]

No, I do not expect you to modify your system, just to use another jvm to invoke RMIR.

I assume that you are familiar with invoking programs from the command line on MacOS. Having opened a terminal program, you start RMIR with a command like

Code: Select all

/path/to/another/jvm/java  -jar /path/to/remotemaster/RemoteMaster.jar -ir 

As I hinted above, when you installed the dmg version of IrScrutinizer, it came with its own java, that you can use for this.

Edit: fixed error in the command line.

[unclemiltie]

I don't know much about the Unix command line but when I do what you wrote above I get the following:

Code: Select all

Error: Could not find or load main class .Users.billjackson.Desktop.Dropbox.Bill Jackson.JP1.Tools.RemoteMaster.RemoteMaster.jar
Caused by: java.lang.ClassNotFoundException: /Users/billjackson/Desktop/Dropbox/Bill Jackson/JP1/Tools/RemoteMaster/RemoteMaster/jar

RemoteMaster.jar is in the directory that I reference

I get the same if I try to do this with the native java command (e.g. java /path/to/RemoteMaster.jar -ir)

[unclemiltie]

figured it out....


needed a "-jar" in between specifying the java VM and the place to get RemoteMaster.

Using the JVM distributed as part of the IRScruitinizer package gives the same results

[Barf]

Sorry for the error, and glad that you figured out the fix.

Does the same misbehavior occur in IrScrutinizer, the Scrutinize remote/Parametric table?

[unclemiltie]

"Does the same misbehavior occur in IrScrutinizer, the Scrutinize remote/Parametric table?"

No, it does not. (give the same results)

Although it is not "right" in what I would consider good interaction design

If I capture a signal and then tab through the table when I get to the new cell it puts the cursor at the end of the existing text and anything I type is added with the original still there.

for "good design" I would use how Excel deals with tabbing from one cell to another. When you tab to the next cell ALL of the text is selected and if you start typing it is erased and filled with what you type.


So IR Scrutinizer when you tab does not select the existing text and just adds what you type to the end making you have to use the delete key to remove what was there before typing

RemoteMaster when you tab selects the existing text, the first character typed will delete the existing text but then selects the character typed, then the second character typed will delete the first one and start typing the rest of what you type.

I would consider both of those behaviors to be incorrect, from a design and usability standpoint.

Hope that all makes sense

[Barf]

Let me try to summarize:

1. Your first post describes a buggy behavior in RM (not RMIR)
2. This is the same with several different JVM
3. IrScrutinizer does not have the same problem
4. You then argue that both programs are not "right" in what you would consider good interaction design

(Did I get it right?)

I have not been able to reproduce 1. on other platforms, and I have not head about that problem from anyone else. (I have a MacMini from 2007 with MacOS 10.11.6, did not try that.) For both programs, the table behavior (which is not a very fundamental part of the funtionallity) is essentially inherited from Java (-Swing) and the JVM. I do not care enough to dig deeper into this, in particularly since the work-around is obvious: use the mouse instead of the TAB key. Graham? Greg?

Feel free to try to convince me that I should care. Do you have any "authoritative" GUI guide supporting your view? Of course, you are welcome to submit patches implementing your desired behavior.

[unclemiltie]

1: unfortunately I do not have any Windows boxes to chec. This appears to be a bug in RM when adding functions to a device being edited/created (I have not seen this behavior elsewhere in RM or RMIR)

2: correct, this is the same behavior with two JVM's that I tried on this box as well as the JVM's included with MacOS as far back as High Sierra. (I can't remember if it's further back then that. Your Mini is 2 versions prior to High Sierra which was 10.13 IIRC)

3: Correct, Ir Scrutinizer does not have the same problem as RM

4: yes, I would consider both to be "incorrect" behavior from a user interaction design standpoint. This from using a LOT of other software and understanding the behavior of tabs as well as managing a pretty large software development organization that at one point had an installed base of over 40 million users. We spent a LOT of time with human factors on minor little things like this.

What's notable is that the two applications behave differently so I'm not sure if this is inherited from the JVM and/or Java since they would be the same if it were, no?


As an aside, I didn't mean to offend anyone who works on this stuff, you guys are building excellent tools for people to use for free to advance the use of these remotes. What has come from RM/RMIR since we were using IR and an EXCEL sheet is remarkable. I'm reporting what I consider to be a bug in the software, and although fixing this specific bug may be low on your list it's still a bug nonetheless. (I would see it no different if someone reported a bug in the documentation for the JP1.3 extenders that doesn't impact functionality but makes the extender a bit harder to use)

As for using the mouse, when entering a large number of items, having to move the mouse to a precise point and click is a lot of extra interaction. I once had this discussion with my lead UI person on my software and she referred me to something known as Fitts' law, which talks to the impact of requiring lots of mouse movement. It's not directly applicable here (it has to do with distance and precision) but it is kind of related. Having to (1) type something, (2) remove your hand from the keyboard, (3) grab the mouse, (4) move it to a precise location, (5) click (6) take your hand off the mouse and (7) type what goes into the box. that instead of pushing TAB a couple of times is a lot of extra work.

Oh and FWIW there is also another work around. If you want to enter "230" in the OBC cell tab to it and type "2230" and it'll work just fine.


I would consider Microsoft EXCEL or Google Sheets as a good example of how tab behavior should be done.

[Barf]

There is a low-hanging fruit that we have not tied yet: Try all the available Look and Feels (available under Options). To be on the safe side,restart the program after a change of LaF.

Yes I really hate to "multiplex" my hand between keyboard and mouse. (IrScope... )

[unclemiltie]

One thing I noticed this morning while building another upgrade.


If the OBC that you are entering is only one digit/character then the tab behavior is as expected. That is the number is entered into the box, turns blue to highlight and then tab sends you to the next box and the entered text remains.


I've not tried changing the LaF yet, good suggestion. I will report back when I get a minute

[unclemiltie]

I forgot to follow up on the LaF change

I switched to the Motif change and then tried again. Tab behavior is exactly what you would expect it to be. I tab between fields and the first character does not get highlighted and the data is entered correctly.


So it's something about the MacOS look and feel that is causing this

[Barf]

OK, so I guess that this "closes the ticket". The Swing toolkit is almost 20 years old, and definitely not a place where development takes place.

Can you verify that the rest of the LaFs (in particular Metal) work correctly?