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INT-422-4 macros on device mode keys

 
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Mjh-NM



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PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2022 4:38 pm    Post subject: INT-422-4 macros on device mode keys Reply with quote

My simplified configuration
INT-422-4 remote. LG TV on device mode key A, DVR+ on device mode key B.
I'm a beginner but I can use either EFC Keypad commands, or JP1 RMDU/RMIR
For JP1 testing I am using the following files from this site:
- 370201 (Inteset INT-422-4).rdf
- LG TV OLED65E6V.rmdu
- Channel Master DVR+ CM-7500GB16.rmdu

My goal
1) When I press device mode key B I wish the INT-422-remote keys to change to the DVR+ functions, AND the TV input to change to HDMI-4 (which is the input from the DVR+)
Symmetrically
2) When I press device mode key A I wish the INT-422-remote keys to change to the TV functions, AND the TV input to change to Live TV (but don't see a function for that)

Actions?
I am guessing I need to assign a macro of some kind (device specific?) to each of these device mode keys? As a beginner I need help on two points:
- Is there a link to a document somewhere that explains to a beginner how to create macros?
- Obviously currently pressing a device mode key changes the functions of the remote's keys. But there does not seem to be a function to assign in a macro to do that. Macros seem to be just a sequence of keys, but can one assign key B as part of a macro on key B? Once the macro gets assigned what does that key do? What do I use?

Any pointers would be greatly appreciated,

Michael
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2022 8:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, the A//B/C/D buttons can be included in macros, just like you did when you helped me create the RDF for this remote.

As for whether this particular remote allows macros on the device buttons, as you are the only user who has posted about this remote so far, you will need to be the one to experiment to see if they are allowed. Most remotes do not allow macros on un-shifted device buttons, but some do. Most allow macros on shifted device buttons.

Your macros should include the relevant A or B buttons in the macros, so that the remote is in the right mode. Macros don't loop, so include the A button in a macro that is on the A button is ok. If this remote doesn't allow macros on the A button, try shift-A (to use it, tap the SET button before tapping the A button).

Instructions for programming macros can be found here:
https://downloads.inteset.com/Inteset_Remote_(INT-422-4)_User_Guide.pdf
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Last edited by The Robman on Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Mjh-NM



Joined: 11 May 2022
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Location: New Mexico

                    
PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob,
Thank you very much for your patience in helping us beginners. [As I answer the beginner questions on another Forum I truly understand the patience required. <smile>]

I was all set to post an update to this post this morning when I noticed your helpful response. I spent much of yesterday working my way through every hifi-remote.com/forums thread which mentioned macros and device buttons. In my opinion your comments in those threads were always the most helpful (save the equally helpful mdavej who also answers beginners on the DVR+ forum).

Concerning macros, the one-page Inteset User’s Guide (which comes packaged with the remote) claims that one can
Quote:
Program any button (except SET) to perform multiple functions (button presses) with a single press. Each macro button can hold up to 32 instructions.
So that "implies" macros could be placed on un-shifted device buttons. While it is silent on device buttons being included in macros on device buttons, I admit to being lax and not yet having tried it. Your assurance that a macro on a device button which includes that device button would not be recursive is reassuring. I will test it and report back here.

However, your comments in some of the posts I read encouraged leaving device buttons "vanilla" which resonated with me. I can well imagine wanting to power on or off a different device while not interupting the viewing from the current device. I will test un-shifted, but now plan to use only the shifted device buttons for the macros I want.

As a retired engineer I am obsessively documenting all my efforts concerning this universal remote. I plan to post a web page of my many lessons learned when I hit a stopping point. As one of my devices is the no longer available DVR+ which has remotes prone to failure, this may be of interest to more than one audiance.

By the way I also tried to create a link to the Inteset documents, but my direct links like yours don’t work. I found it was necessary to link to this main Inteset page.
https://support.intesettech.com/forum/document-amp-video-library/int422-3-documents/48-int-422-programming-key-map-documents
That page contains "programmatic relative" links to all their documentation, which includes both the one-page User’s Guide as well as their more general INT-422 Technical Programming Document. That document contains their instructions for "Remote Keypad Commands" which differ slightly from the generic instructions usually posted for some commands. Unfortunately it is not complete as testing shows the remote handles several commands (e.g. 994) which are not mentioned.

Thanks again, Rob, for all your help to us beginners. I will report back soon along with uploads of improved RDF, MAP, and JPG files for the INT-422-4, as well as my new RMDU files for my devices. As others have commented, this JP1 stuff is addictive!!
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 12:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hadn't noticed that my link wasn't working, I just fixed it. It was the () brackets in the URL that caused it not to work, so I replaced them with 28 and 29 hex codes and that fixed it.

The user manuals for most UEI remotes leave out features that are in the remote, which is one of the main reasons that I started the hifi-remote.com web site, even before we invented JP1. My main remote is the Radio Shack 15-1994 and that user manual doesn't even mention macros, and back in the day (when Radio Shack still existed), if you called their help line, they weren't allowed to comment on macros. And the manual said you could only learn to the 4 dedicated "smart" buttons, whereas in real like you can learn to almost all the buttons.

As you've read in my other posts, I'm not a fan of programming too much to the native device buttons as I believe you will regret it when you just want to switch device modes. In my case, my remote won't let me do it anyway, but even if I could I would still prefer to use shifted device buttons. Having said that, anytime where I'm sure that I want a button to do more than just its original task, I will use macros for that.

Another thing I like to do is select a button to be my dedicated input select button. Many people struggle with deciding how to handle input selects. What i do is, I pick a "spare" button and I re-program it in each device mode to select the right input. For example, let's say you have a DVD and STB and let's say that the PIP button is "spare", in DVD mode I would reprogram the PIP button to select the DVD input on your receiver, and in STB mode I would re-program it to select the STB input on your receiver. That also enables you to have some generic macros which might include the PIP button, where you know it will pick the right input. What I mean by that is, let's say you need to select the right input on 2 devices (like the TV and the stereo), you could program the right codes to phantom buttons and then program a system-wide macro to PIP which includes the 2 phantom buttons (and no device buttons), then regardless of which device mode the remote is in, pressing PIP will select the right inputs on both the TV and the stereo.

Back to the device buttons and macros, regardless of what you end up deciding to do, I would still like you to verify what the remote lets you do, because if macros on the device buttons don't work, I will update the RDF to not let you program them. And keep in mind that, even if the remote won't let you program them manually (ie, using 995 on the remote), it might still let them work when they are programmed through RMIR. That's the case with macros on the shifted-device buttons on my 15-1994, I can't program them on the remote, but I can thru RMIR.
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Mjh-NM



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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 1:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay Rob, I will add the non-RMIR macro testing to my "to do" list.
Thanks again for all your insights and help.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2022 8:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Michael, I'm less concerned with non-RMIR testing, I'm more interested to know if, when you program a macro to the A/B/C/D device buttons in RMIR, does it execute? If it doesn't, I will add something to the RDF to prevent folks from programming macros on them in RMIR.

It would still be good to know whether the remote allows you to program macros on them, but that information won't change how I do the RDF.
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Mjh-NM



Joined: 11 May 2022
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Location: New Mexico

                    
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob,

Results from the quick test I had time for this morning seem to show macros can be loaded on the un-shifted device buttons and will execute. So it appears no restrictions need be added to the RDF.

What I did: In RMIR on the Macros tab I clicked "New". I chose ’C’ as the bound key and left "Shift" unchecked. I then selected the one INT-422-4 key "MENU" to Add to the Macro keys. (I figured a one-key macro was sufficient to demonstrate the ability.) I then uploaded to the remote. Now whatever device mode I am in, if I press "C" I get the menu displayed for that device mode.

-----

This raises a separate new area for me to experiment with. Since the button choices are the INT keys and not any device’s functions, I don’t see how to change INPUT on the TV to something, like HDMI4? But that doesn’t affect the RDF.

As for the changes I made, they are all cosmetic associated only with names. I changed no functions or codes. I will reply to the post about the new RDF with details of what I did.
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The Robman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mjh-NM wrote:
This raises a separate new area for me to experiment with. Since the button choices are the INT keys and not any device’s functions, I don’t see how to change INPUT on the TV to something, like HDMI4?

This is a common struggle. What UEI often does is, they put the input selects on the 10 numeric buttons in their stereo receiver setup codes.

But this is what I was trying to describe to you earlier. Let's say you have a DVD, XBox and STB in the mix.

Let's say on your TV, you have the following:
HDMI1 = DVD
HDMI2 = XBox and
HMDI3 = STB

And let's say that on your stereo receiver, you have the following:
Video1 = DVD
Video2 = XBox and
Video3 = STB

On your INT remote, let's assume you have programmed the following:
A = DVD
B = XBox and
C = STB

Assuming you have discrete codes for the 3 HMDI modes on your TV, and the 3 Video modes on your stereo, you could then program the following as keymoves:

A mode, Phantom1 = TV HDMI1
B mode, Phantom1 = TV HDMI2
C mode, Phantom1 = TV HDMI3

A mode, Phantom2 = Stereo Video1
B mode, Phantom2 = Stereo Video2
C mode, Phantom2 = Stereo Video3

I don't know what the buttons at the bottom of the INT do, so I'm going to pick the STAR button to be my input select button. All you would need to do is program a global macro on STAR with 2 steps: Phantom1, Phantom2

Now, regardless of whether you're in A, B or C mode, pressing STAR will select the correct inputs, on both the TV and the stereo, for the device that you're watching. Also, if you have macros on the shifted A/B/C buttons that turn things on, etc you can include the 2 phantoms at the end of the macro to select the right inputs.

Does this concept make sense? Bottom line, stop thinking of the HMDI buttons as belonging to the TV, and start thinking of them as belonging to the device that's connected to them. Ditto for the stereo and any other device that has inputs, like video selector switches, etc.

Note: I see that I created the phantom buttons using button codes that appeared to be skipped, so it would be a good idea to validate that those codes all work and are not button codes for some special buttons that are not included on the physical remote. The way to test them is, program something to them and then include them in a macro. For example, program MENU to phantom1, then create a macro that calls phantom1 and verify that it sends the MENU button, just like you did for the ABC buttons.
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Mjh-NM



Joined: 11 May 2022
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob,

I appreciate your attempt to reduce my ignorance but it is larger than I think you realize as I really did not understand what you tried to convey. Crying or Very sad

However, as I often tell someone on my forum: "try what you think will work and see what happens". So I did. The good news is that I have figured out how to create a macro to do what I want. The bad news is that the INT-422-4 will allow macros on the un-shifted device mode keys, BUT NOT on the shifted device mode keys.

First, I think? you were trying to tell me that I had to edit a given device in the RMIR and assign any function desired in a macro to "some" button in that mode, even if it is a phantom button. So I edited the TV mode (A) and assigned direct INPUT codes to phantom buttons (e.g. phantom4=HDMI4).

Now, I created a macro which I hoped would change both the TV input and the remote to the DVR device. That device is TV input on HDMI4 and functions on device mode (C). That makes the macro have the keys:
A;INPUT;phantom4;C

Works perfectly. In any mode I press the button assigned this macro and the TV input changes to the DVR plus the remote changes to the DVR functions.

I first assigned this macro on a color button, both un-shifted and shifted. Works like a charm. Next I tried it on a device mode button, both un-shifted and shifted. Only the un-shifted worked!!!??? [edit- I even tried using Shift-Shift-mode key in case it worked like number keys. No luck.]

Any advice? Is there something in the RDF which prevents macros on un-shifted device mode keys???
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2022 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the missing link is that you don't know what keymoves are, so read up on those.

I don't want you to program the HDMI functions to buttons in TV mode, because that would require switching to TV mode to use them. If HDMI1 is the function that selects the input that your DVD player (for example) is connected to, I want you to program the HMDI1 function to a button in DVD mode (which ever mode that is for you, so A B C or D).

So, if the question is, "which button selects the HDMI1 input on the TV?", your answer would be "TV mode, phantom1", whereas my answer would be "DVD mode, phantom1".

If we were to repeat the process for the STB, you would have to chose a different phantom button in TV mode for HDMI3, whereas I would still use Phantom1 because it would be in STB mode rather than DVD mode.
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Mjh-NM



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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You "hit the nail on the head", Rob, thank you.

I did know "something" about a keymove, but I did not truly understand what it did nor how to enter it in RMIR. To me most of the reading about it did not make clear to me what I feel are their critical concepts. However, by doing testing along with more reading I now understand that a keymove does not really do what I would call "move a key"!!! Instead the following description is much more understandable to me:

First, a keymove identifies a single specific real button or phantom key within a single specific device mode to which a paired device/function code will be assigned.

Next the assignment includes BOTH the function AND the device associated with that function. That device/function pair is expected to come from a different device mode than the mode of the button or key to which it will be assigned. It can be any of the functions associated with any of the electronic devices which are currently defined in the RMIR (or within the remote).

I feel the above now also makes it clearer to me HOW to assign a keymove within RMIR, something I could not find in or understand from any of the tutorials or descriptions about a keymove. For other users who may be puzzled by this I have posted a separate Beginner post on this specific topic. If you find its description might be useful to others feel free to pin it.

===========

Thanks to your perseverence I greatly prefer my new structure. I created four different Key Moves, one for each of the device modes, assigned to the same phantom1 key. In each mode that common key now contains the paired device/function for the TV device to execute its function to change its input to the device of this device mode.

Now the four device independent macros on the four color keys have the four simplified pair of key presses: [device mode key];phantom1

Wish I could put these on the shifted device keys, but ...???

Michael

P.S. You said in another post you are in IT. I retired from that field where I began long before it was ever called IT. When I retired I counted 18 computer languages and 14 operating system in which at one time or other I supposedly was an "expert". By now I have forgotten most of them <smile>.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2022 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It had never occurred to me that someone didn't know what a keymove was, but I guess everybody has to start somewhere. Here are some selections from our Wiki:

http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/JP1_-_Just_How_Easy_Is_It%3F#Keymoves_Tab

http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/The_WHAT_and_WHY_of_JP1#Keymoves

http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/Manual_Programming_-_9xx_Commands#.28994.29_Key_Mover

Here's another way of looking at it, all of our upgrades are just a collection of button codes and keymoves are just a way of programming those button codes outside of the upgrade itself. The term "key move" comes from its original form where you would literally copy a function from one button to another like this. The next form of the 994 command allowed you to enter an "advanced code" (or "EFC") instead of copying a button. You can use this both within a device mode, or from one device mode to another. You might use it within a device mode to program a button that's not available in that mode. In your case, you want to use it to program a button in a different device mode, but that's not a requirement for it to be a key move.
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Mjh-NM



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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2022 2:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Robman wrote:
It had never occurred to me that someone didn't know what a keymove was, but I guess everybody has to start somewhere.
Actually I have noticed several beginner posts which appear to me as demonstrating not understanding keymoves. But then from my technical training background I always suspect many a beginner starts with no knowledge in the area.

One thing I realize which I did not make clear is that these comments (and my earlier ignorance) are focused on creating and understanding keymoves when using the RMIR program, not manual keymoves. I have therefore also edited my other post about keymoves to better reflect that focus.

Quote:
Here are some selections from our Wiki:
I had already reviewed all of these selections. My comments of why they did not seem to provide the education I sought are below.

Quote:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/JP1_-_Just_How_Easy_Is_It%3F#Keymoves_Tab
This entry does describe the RMIR "Key Moves" tab, but it does not contain any explanations of:
- what a keymove is,
- how to create a new one in RMIR,
- why one would want to create one in RMIR,
or (most important in my mind)
- why it is different than simply editing that device mode's upgrade in RMIR and assigning its function to a key that way.

Quote:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/The_WHAT_and_WHY_of_JP1#Keymoves
This describes the internal storage of a keymove, but does not seem to touch on any of the above issues. Further it focuses on the "bound" (or active) device. Buried later in the text about "which protocol to use" it does mention including a device type and setup. But it does not even mention that they could be different than the "bound" device, which I believe is what is special about a keymove.

Quote:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/wiki/index.php/Manual_Programming_-_9xx_Commands#.28994.29_Key_Mover
This describes how to "manually" create a keymove. As I mention above that was not my educational need. But again it touches on none of the above issues. While both the "Copy" instructions and the "Assign from another device" instructions "infer" that there are two devices involved, I consider that feature extremely subtle. Further there is no indication (other than some inference based on command names) that this has anything to do with using the RMIR program.

Quote:
... The term "key move" comes from its original form where you would literally copy a function from one button to another... [one can] use it to program a button in a different device mode, but that's not a requirement for it to be a key move.
It may not be a requirement, but I find it to be its special and possibly unique feature. I do understand that a keymove "can" copy a function from one key to another "on the same device". But if one is using the RMIR program why would one use a Keymove for that? Keymove may have historically grown out of a "copy on the same device". But if it only involves that one device, now that one can use the RMIR program I believe simply editing that one device's Upgrade is easier, cleaner and more intuitive to accomplish that copy. It keeps everything that is only about that device in its separate upgrade.

Thanks to the RMDU feature, if one is using the RMIR program I see no value in creating a keymove within the same device. Even if one's goal is to leave the RMDU file unchanged, RMIR contains a copy of the device upgrade. It is that copy which is being edited without affecting the original RMDU file. So just like a Keymove which must exist in the RMIR file, an Upgrade edit also can only exist in the RMIR.

I know that you have incredibly more background and knowledge in this topic, but sometimes us beginners need to start from the true beginning of no knowledge in developing our understanding.

Regardless, again many thanks to you. I could not be learning as well or as fast as I am without your guidance.

Michael
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