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what is ">2k support" ?

 
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usblipitor



Joined: 10 Oct 2003
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Location: Greenbelt, MD

PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:30 pm    Post subject: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

I have some stupid questions. (I am reminded of the saying, "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people." Rolling Eyes ) Anyway, here goes:

1. The 8811 has a "yes" in the ">2k support" column, while the 8910 does not. Does this refer to the available memory on the EEPROM ? If so, does anyone every run out of memory when using 2k ? Why would OFA put more memory in the less expensive model?

2. The 8910 has an odd shaped disc instead of arrow keys. The 8811 has the usual arrow keys. On remotecentral.com I read one reviewer that said it would take some getting used to. My theory is that the disc may be cheaper to produce. Anyone seen the disc? Cheap and going to break in 6 months, or revolutionary new technology?

3. The 8910 has an LCD screen. Useful? Useless?

4. the 15-2116 vs the 15-2117: If you buy the 15-2117 will it work alone, or does the RF receiver have to be set up for it to work? If I designed it, I would have it send out an IR signal like the 15-2116, as well as an RF signal. If it does both, does this cut down on the battery life?

5. Any opinions on balance, hand-feel, size, button placement of the 8811/8910/2117 ?

6. Why do people spend $500+ on remotes? Is there something the $500 remotes can do that JP1 can not do on a $30 remote?

7. (warning: really dumb question ahead) Has anyone ever considered modifying buttons? Sanding off labels, repainting (or applying decal) new labels, sealing the new button labels with polyurethane? (you may stop laughing now Laughing )

Thank you in advance for any advice which will be much appreciated!
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jamesgammel
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 1:57 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

usblipitor wrote:
I have some stupid questions. (I am reminded of the saying, "there are no stupid questions, only stupid people." Rolling Eyes ) Anyway, here goes:

1. The 8811 has a "yes" in the ">2k support" column, while the 8910 does not. Does this refer to the available memory on the EEPROM ? If so, does anyone every run out of memory when using 2k ? Why would OFA put more memory in the less expensive model?


The 8811 "family" of remotes will support a higher capacity eeprom, the 8910 won't. OFA does NOT supply any remotes with larger than 4K's, typically it's 2K or less. There are a few with 4K from the factory. Neither of the 2 you quoted are among that select group. The greater than 2K selection is for those who either swap out the standard 2K with a 4K or 8K or add them to eepromless remotes like the 6012W, 8810W, etc. (all in the 8811 "family". NOTE: this is a post factory hack, not something that ueic will do for you. At best, they may install a 2K into a 6011, 6012, 8011.

2. The 8910 has an odd shaped disc instead of arrow keys. The 8811 has the usual arrow keys. On remotecentral.com I read one reviewer that said it would take some getting used to. My theory is that the disc may be cheaper to produce. Anyone seen the disc? Cheap and going to break in 6 months, or revolutionary new technology?

Of course many have seen the disc. We generally refer to it as the stupid donut. To add to the problems it makes the select key harder to access, especially if you have large thumbs or fingets. Revolutionary? technology? How about just cheaper?

3. The 8910 has an LCD screen. Useful? Useless?

Some say useless, some say useful. John's pointed out most of the "useless". Personally, I can see some useful points, but the actual user would have to decide for himself.

4. the 15-2116 vs the 15-2117: If you buy the 15-2117 will it work alone, or does the RF receiver have to be set up for it to work? If I designed it, I would have it send out an IR signal like the 15-2116, as well as an RF signal. If it does both, does this cut down on the battery life?

You're not required to use the base-station that comes with it. The 2117 does send IR and RF signals simultaneously. The 2117 is a 2116 with RF puck added to send both. Some here have added the puck to a 2116 to make it a 2117 (Then used a base-station from another model, like a P-8 that they "upgraded" from). I'd imagine it does shorten battery life a little, I don't know if anyone actually compared battery l;ife of a 2116 vs. a 2117. Besides, that'd be a tough real test to make.



5. Any opinions on balance, hand-feel, size, button placement of the 8811/8910/2117 ?

Those are all subjective qualities and best left to personal taste. What's "nice to me" may be lousy to you.

6. Why do people spend $500+ on remotes? Is there something the $500 remotes can do that JP1 can not do on a $30 remote?

Custom labels, espicially graphics on touchscreens. Some even have color. I think a lot more is "prestige" than most anything else. Personally I can't justify paying more for a remote than the cheapest device it controls. BUT, that's a personal and subjective opinion.

7. (warning: really dumb question ahead) Has anyone ever considered modifying buttons? Sanding off labels, repainting (or applying decal) new labels, sealing the new button labels with polyurethane? (you may stop laughing now Laughing )

It's been done, also "dynamo" labels, tranparent stickons custom printed, etc. You aren't the first, and likely won't be the last to consider this.

BTW, My philosophy has always been the only stupid question is one that wasn't asked.

Jim
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mr_d_p_gumby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 2:01 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

usblipitor wrote:
1. The 8811 has a "yes" in the ">2k support" column, while the 8910 does not. Does this refer to the available memory on the EEPROM ? If so, does anyone every run out of memory when using 2k ? Why would OFA put more memory in the less expensive model?
The "yes" in the ">2k support" column means that the firmware in the remote supports EEPROMs larger than 2K bytes. It does not mean the remote is supplied with a larger EEPROM. The support in the firmware may or may not have bugs, and is definately not supported by UEI.

usblipitor wrote:
2. The 8910 has an odd shaped disc instead of arrow keys. The 8811 has the usual arrow keys. On remotecentral.com I read one reviewer that said it would take some getting used to. My theory is that the disc may be cheaper to produce. Anyone seen the disc? Cheap and going to break in 6 months, or revolutionary new technology?
Some people find the disc more awkward to use than separate arrow keys, so much so that UEI decided to change back to separate arrow keys on some models. I suspect the disc is more a result of styling issues than any technological breakthrough.

usblipitor wrote:
3. The 8910 has an LCD screen. Useful? Useless?
Opinions vary. Some people like it, and others find it superfluous.

usblipitor wrote:
4. the 15-2116 vs the 15-2117: If you buy the 15-2117 will it work alone, or does the RF receiver have to be set up for it to work? If I designed it, I would have it send out an IR signal like the 15-2116, as well as an RF signal. If it does both, does this cut down on the battery life?
It transmits both IR and RF signals at the same time. The impact of the RF transmission on battery life is probably quite small by comparison to the power used for IR transmission.
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johnsfine
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 3:47 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

usblipitor wrote:
1. The 8811 has a "yes" in the ">2k support" column, while the 8910 does not. Does this refer to the available memory on the EEPROM ? If so, does anyone every run out of memory when using 2k ? Why would OFA put more memory in the less expensive model?


A typical "power user" of these remotes goes through a variety of advanced techniques to get a setup which would be much simpler to create with a bunch of KeyMoves, except that would exceed the KeyMove capacity. Very few people have flat out too little space to get the desired behavior within 2K. Many people have to be imaginative in how they use their 2K because it is very limiting.

A typical non JP1 user with these remotes in a serious home system, is highly constrained by the lack or learning memory in the 2K chip. It is often mentioned as the reason for chosing a different brand of remote. With JP1, the amount of learning memory is rarely a serious issue.

The models with 4K eeproms have twice as much learning memory as the 2K ones. They don't have any extra KeyMove memory (unless you use an extender).

The 8810 family does not have 4K eeproms, nor even real support for 4K eeproms. The designers seem to have started adding 4K support to the basic design and released the 8810 family with that undebugged support, which was not correct. They sell 8810's only with 2K eeproms. We determined that there is a way to use JP1 to get an 8810 to work with a 4K or larger eeprom, despite the errors in its built-in support for 4K. In fact, (even with our method) the manual programming of the remote doesn't work right, nor does the remote's restart after prolonged battery removal work. For both those reasons, an 8810 with 4K+ eeprom NEEDS JP1, as opposed to an 8810 with 2K eeprom where JP1 just helps. (No other model family has that undebugged support. 8910 etc. don't support 4K+ at all. Some models have true 4K support even without JP1 help).

usblipitor wrote:
2. The 8910 has an odd shaped disc instead of arrow keys. The 8811 has the usual arrow keys. On remotecentral.com I read one reviewer that said it would take some getting used to. My theory is that the disc may be cheaper to produce. Anyone seen the disc? Cheap and going to break in 6 months, or revolutionary new technology?


Products are designed to appeal from the shelf, not to work well in your hands. A remote manufacturer has to keep messing around with cute layout features to make their product stand out on the shelves. Rocker buttons for channel and volume seem to be very popular (personally I hate them vs. individual switches, but others feel differently). The stupid ring was a natural extension of that rocker idea, until you try to actually use it.

[quote="usblipitor"]3. The 8910 has an LCD screen. Useful? Useless?

I think useless. Others disagree (of course they're wrong Smile )

usblipitor wrote:
6. Why do people spend $500+ on remotes? Is there something the $500 remotes can do that JP1 can not do on a $30 remote?


They have a decent amount of learning memory, which often means you can program them with less understanding of what you're doing than is required for a JP1 upgrade. The big feature is that the screen changes as you select device modes in a way that can be specific to your devices. That can be a big help, especially for visitors or babsitters etc. who can't be expected to learn which button does what on an 8810. (But if I had a $500 remote, I'd never let any vistors use it).

The Kameleon is sort of a step in that direction, BUT that step is totally wasted by the fact that the screen config by device mode is entirely built-in and not adjustable. It is understandable that the Kameleon has a small fixed set of button images, vs. a $500 remote which has full flexibility. It isn't understandable that they don't tie the selection of those images to which keys are live (including KeyMoves etc.) in the current mode.

usblipitor wrote:
7. (warning: really dumb question ahead) Has anyone ever considered modifying buttons? Sanding off labels, repainting (or applying decal) new labels, sealing the new button labels with polyurethane?


All my mechanical projects are dismal failures. I've tried things like that long ago, with horrid results. Others are more competent at such things.
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usblipitor



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:12 pm    Post subject: Protocol / Extender Reply with quote

I am in the presence of greatness! Thank you all for educating me!

The extender program seems to be a very useful thing to be able to add. In the "Protocol / Extender" column of the master chart, the 15-2116 is listed as "Yes/Yes" while the 15-2117 is listed as "Yes/No". Is this correct?

Of course, I noticed this today as I just returned from radio shack with a 15-2117 which I was about to take out of the plastic Confused
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Mark Pierson
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Protocol / Extender Reply with quote

usblipitor wrote:
In the "Protocol / Extender" column of the master chart, the 15-2116 is listed as "Yes/Yes" while the 15-2117 is listed as "Yes/No". Is this correct?

The 2116 and 2117 are the same internally, except for the RF feature. The 2116 extender will work for both.
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mr_d_p_gumby
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 5:49 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

johnsfine wrote:
The big feature is that the screen changes as you select device modes in a way that can be specific to your devices. That can be a big help, especially for visitors or babsitters etc. who can't be expected to learn which button does what on an 8810. (But if I had a $500 remote, I'd never let any vistors use it).
Heck, I won't even let the wife use it, let alone a visitor! Shocked
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Lenroc



Joined: 05 Oct 2003
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:06 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

mr_d_p_gumby wrote:
Heck, I won't even let the wife use it, let alone a visitor! Shocked


Hehehe... the only way I could get my wife to be ok with spending any money on a remote was to tell her it would make her life easier.

That's why "Power" turns on the receiver & TV and tunes the receiver to the Cable Box, etc, while "Shift-Power" acts as a regular power button. It's also why just "CBL" tunes the receiver to the cable box, etc., and just "AUX" tunes the receiver to the Tivo [which is in the other room, otherwise it would be the default device on powerup], and pulls up the "Now Playing on Tivo" screen...

I was fortunate that my Kenwood receiver came with such a great remote (The RC-R0720), which is why I've never needed a new one before now...

For the record, I _could_ have bought a remote any time, with only minimal grumbling from my better half... it's just more fun to try to talk her into it Wink
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Lenroc



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 12, 2003 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: what is ">2k support" ? Reply with quote

Most of your questions have already been answered... just though I'd throw in my $.02 on:

usblipitor wrote:
3. The 8910 has an LCD screen. Useful? Useless?


IMHO, with JP1 it is useless. I was psyched to have it on my 2117, before I made my Simple Interface, because it gave me an easy way to see what codes were where. Since I have a lot of duplicate devices I wanted to control with the 2117 (3 TV's, for instance), it makes it easier to remember which button does what when the LCD screen tells you... Wink

It also is the easiest way to "back up" your codes sans JP1. Just step through each device and write down the codes that are handily displayed for you.
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