UEI Learning format change

[vickyg2003]

New images are only possible for remotes where the RDF contains enough information to create a minimal setup. This is not the case with the Nevos and similar. There are lots of .rmir files for Nevos available in the forum, so I see no need to include one in the distribution.

I would counter that trying to find a clean rmir file for each of those remotes is not that easy,

I agree with you on that point, when I was on just observing, it would have been nice to explore the software without having to buy a remote, but now that they are so cheap the cost isn't a problem.

I don't think they belong in the distro though. It is really is more of an expert thing. I rebuilt an Nevo image for someone that had really screwed theirs up. It required a fresh image, and then I had to load it up to the remote, change the language and redownload it. As an expert if you don't have access to the remote, you'd need an image for each language. English, Espanol, Francais, Italiano, Deutsch, Norsk, Svenska, Nederlands, Suomi and Dansk and whatever "other" language someone has downloaded from EZ-RC.
I personally think this should be somewhere in the files here, but what do I know.

[mathdon]

The remotes concerned are only the Nevos and the corresponding XSights. Internally they are identical, so you only need one .rmir file for one of them to be able to deal with issues for all of them. If you want to upload the file to a remote, you only need one remote and both of you have a Nevo. Just upload and when you get a message that the signature differs, do you want to continue, just say Yes.

Why on earth you need images in each language is beyond my comprehension. Whatever the issue is, it will show up in English just as well as in the original language.

[vickyg2003]

Why on earth you need images in each language is beyond my comprehension. Whatever the issue is, it will show up in English just as well as in the original language.

if I am assisting someone and building a remote from a blank rmir file, won't it change all their prompts on their remote to English if I don't start with an rmir that wasn't in their native language? Or was that the Monster?

[mathdon]

if I am assisting someone and building a remote from a blank rmir file, won't it change all their prompts on their remote to English if I don't start with an rmir that wasn't in their native language?

I see your point. Of course, there are 6 XSight/Nevo remotes (the OfA (European) and ARRX (US) versions of Touch/Color and the two Nevos), 6 region settings and 10 languages and all combinations of these are possible. So we really need 360 blank rmir files in case a Norwegian living in the Middle East with a US-version XSight Touch has a problem you need to solve.

On the other hand, of course, the Norwegian probably knows enough English to be able to find the language setting on the Settings menu of the remote and change it back to Norwegian. If you don't want him to have to do that, then armed with a Nevo and RMIR you can create a blank rmir file for the ARRX XSight Touch set to the Middle East region and Norwegian language. I think it preferable for you to do that if the occasion ever arises than for me to sit down and do it 360 times to create a library of files for you to use.

Don't forget the region setting, by the way. It's the one that neither of you have mentioned but which cannot be set "on the fly". It can only be changed after a factory reset. These remotes are the only truly universal remotes that UEI has made. All others have the set of built-in setup codes tailored to the region in which they are sold, as equipment varies greatly in different regions of the world. These remotes have the setup codes for all regions built in together and a region setting that determines which of them are available for users in a particular geographic region. But you probably knew that anyway, didn't you.

[vickyg2003]

On the other hand, of course, the Norwegian probably knows enough English to be able to find the language setting on the Settings menu of the remote and change it back to Norwegian.

Given recent exchanges, I'm surprised that you are so optimistic,

Don't forget the region setting, by the way. It's the one that neither of you have mentioned but which cannot be set "on the fly". It can only be changed after a factory reset.

Does that mean that uploading an image is not going to destroy the user's original choice?

These remotes have the setup codes for all regions built in together and a region setting that determines which of them are available for users in a particular geographic region. But you probably knew that anyway, didn't you.

I didn't until now. So you are saying if I created an RMIR image for someone abroad, from a remote configured for the US, the then the user tried to ADD A DEVICE via the remote's screen, the user would not see the brands that are prevalent in the area, and on common brands, the soft buttons would not be appropriate for tv's in that area, like "Teletext" would be missing.

[The Robman]

Looking at this from the other angle, what is missing in the RDF that is preventing RMIR from creating a virgin image? Even if we don't understand the data, could we not add it as fixed data?

[mathdon]

Does that mean that uploading an image is not going to destroy the user's original choice?

No, after an upload the remote will have the region setting of the uploaded image. I meant that you cannot change the region and preserve the current setup. The reason is obvious, of course. The current setup may contain setup codes that are not available in the new region.

So you are saying if I created an RMIR image for someone abroad, from a remote configured for the US, the then the user tried to ADD A DEVICE via the remote's screen, the user would not see the brands that are prevalent in the area, and on common brands, the soft buttons would not be appropriate for tv's in that area, like "Teletext" would be missing

.
Yes, that is indeed the case. It would behave as a US remote.

Looking at this from the other angle, what is missing in the RDF that is preventing RMIR from creating a virgin image? Even if we don't understand the data, could we not add it as fixed data?

We do understand the data. It resides in files with names like system.xcf. There is no E2 area as we otherwise understand it, so the fixed data concept is not applicable. What you see in the Raw Data tab of RMIR is not a dump of an E2 area, it is a construct of my invention from a set of user files. I created this in order to map the alien structure of these remotes into something that could be represented in RMIR.

Anyway, I don't understand this great desire for RMIR to create a virgin image (presumably for North American region with English language). You both have a Nevo, download that for your starting point. Vicky, you can use any region in that starting point. Just do a factory reset and choose the region (and language, if you wish) of the user you are developing for. As I said before, they are all identical in their operation and a setup for any of them can be loaded without change into any other.

[mathdon]

I've now uploaded build 7 of RMIR v2.05 to the RMIR development folder. This includes the latest fixes to the learned signals analysis. They involve some reorganisation of the code, so Rob, I would be grateful if you could give this a fairly thorough test. I am much happier with the code as it is now and think that it behaves sensibly in all circumstances that I can think of, but as with any such reorganisation it is always possible for new bugs to creep in when old ones are removed.

The build also includes a revised protocols.ini with an Onkyo Combo entry passed to me by Rob, and revised RDFs for the XSight Touch/Color and Nevo C2/C3. The recent development builds have included the RDF for the Nevo C2, this brings the related remotes into line.

[vickyg2003]

Anyway, I don't understand this great desire for RMIR to create a virgin image (presumably for North American region with English language). You both have a Nevo, download that for your starting point. Vicky, you can use any region in that starting point. Just do a factory reset and choose the region (and language, if you wish) of the user you are developing for. As I said before, they are all identical in their operation and a setup for any of them can be loaded without change into any other.

As Rob said earlier

This is all about giving experts, who don't have the remote in question, all the tools they need in order to help folks.

I have a NEVO NOW, but there were many times that you and mdavej and transx were talking about things that I couldn't follow. Part of that is because menu items and screens don't even show up unless you have an image to open. There was a whole lot to learn when I finally dared to attach my virgin Nevo to RMIR and do a download. I imagine that I'm not the only curious jp1er that felt left behind. Playing with the software is part of the fun.

Now I realize I need the 6 regions more than I need the 10 languages.
Would an empty image be different for a remote still running 1.3.7 as opposed to 1.3.33

Don't forget the region setting, by the way. It's the one that neither of you have mentioned but which cannot be set "on the fly". It can only be changed after a factory reset. These remotes are the only truly universal remotes that UEI has made

.


Most remotes have a Factory Reset built in, but as far as I know the Nevo doesn't have built in capability. The RESET on the remote itself just gets rid of learns and macros and key edits and never brings you back to the region selection screen. The only way I know to get back to the region settings is with a file system rebuild via RMIR.

As a Wannabe-Expert, it is important to me that I know enough to do no harm. If I want to rebuild a file from scratch I'd need to start with an image with the proper region setting, or there is no way for the user to use it.

[mathdon]

I think it very unwise for any expert without a Nevo (or similar) to try to do development work for it. As I keep saying, these remotes are totally different from anything else from UEI. Supporting them means a steep learning curve even for experts steeped in more standard remotes.

Would an empty image be different for a remote still running 1.3.7 as opposed to 1.3.33

No, since the image is not changed when you upgrade the firmware.

Most remotes have a Factory Reset built in, but as far as I know the Nevo doesn't have built in capability.

As I just said, a steep learning curve . See item 10 in MFR RESET - Instructions.

[vickyg2003]

I think it very unwise for any expert without a Nevo (or similar) to try to do development work for it. As I keep saying, these remotes are totally different from anything else from UEI. Supporting them means a steep learning curve even for experts steeped in more standard remotes.

It took me 30 days just to set up my first NEVO, when I already had a working setup for the same equipment on an 8811, so I found the learning curve very steep, but if I had seen the software ahead of time, I would have had time to digest some of what I was seeing. But you are right, a big part of the learning curve was seeing how this worked with the remote, even tracking the out put with irscope to see how the remote behaved.

Most remotes have a Factory Reset built in, but as far as I know the Nevo doesn't have built in capability.

As I just said, a steep learning curve . See item 10 in MFR RESET - Instructions.

It says this
Home, Settings, Reset. Press Reset again or enter 981 then Reset for a full reset

But it is really
Home, Settings, Reset, 9 8 1, Factory Reset

(I made the change in the Wiki)

If you press reset the second time you get a minor reset, just losing the learns.

Yes very steep learning curve.

[The Robman]

Anyway, I don't understand this great desire for RMIR to create a virgin image (presumably for North American region with English language). You both have a Nevo, download that for your starting point.

It's no biggie, but just to try and get you to understand, I would often see posts from folks with Nevo's asking why something in RMIR was the way it was, and typically I hadn't heard of the screen or setting that they were talking about, so I would be curious and I would want to go to RMIR and see for myself, because (who knows) it might have been intuitive to me. But, as I was away from my home PC, I was not able to do anything about it. And to be honest, even if I was at home, while that curiosity might have been enough for me to just click on RMIR, it probably wasn't enough for me to go and dig out my Nevo, connect it to the computer and do a download. Just not worth the effort. But like you say, there are enough other Nevo experts, you don't need me and Vicky joining the chorus to help.

I think it very unwise for any expert without a Nevo (or similar) to try to do development work for it. As I keep saying, these remotes are totally different from anything else from UEI. Supporting them means a steep learning curve even for experts steeped in more standard remotes.

I've never intended to do any development, I just wanted to understand more about how RMIR supports them and maybe to help people out occasionally. But there is a time:help ratio here, if it takes me too much time to help, I probably won't bother.

There is no E2 area as we otherwise understand it, so the fixed data concept is not applicable. What you see in the Raw Data tab of RMIR is not a dump of an E2 area, it is a construct of my invention from a set of user files. I created this in order to map the alien structure of these remotes into something that could be represented in RMIR.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you include the signature also?

I've now uploaded build 7 of RMIR v2.05 to the RMIR development folder. This includes the latest fixes to the learned signals analysis. They involve some reorganisation of the code, so Rob, I would be grateful if you could give this a fairly thorough test.

Will do.

[mathdon]

But there is a time:help ratio here, if it takes me too much time to help, I probably won't bother.

That's my answer also to why you won't get RMIR creating a virgin image for the XSights. Put another way, the cost/benefit ratio is just too high.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you include the signature also?

That's a simple one. None of the remotes beyond JP1.3 have their signature in the E2 area.

[The Robman]

But there is a time:help ratio here, if it takes me too much time to help, I probably won't bother.

That's my answer also to why you won't get RMIR creating a virgin image for the XSights. Put another way, the cost/benefit ratio is just too high.

All I was asking is that we include one rmir file from each USB remote, that's all.

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you include the signature also?

That's a simple one. None of the remotes beyond JP1.3 have their signature in the E2 area.

I thought these remotes didn't have E2 area, you just said you mock up the E2 area.

[mathdon]

I thought these remotes didn't have E2 area, you just said you mock up the E2 area.

No, that's a confusion of what remotes I was talking about. The JP1.4, JP2, XSight Lite/Plus and Simpleset remotes all have an E2 area but that area does not contain the signature. The six remotes that do not have an E2 area but use instead an internal filestore are the XSight Touch/Color (European and US models) and the Nevo C2/C3.