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Problem with Akai protocol.

 
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Carwarr



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 12:06 am    Post subject: Problem with Akai protocol. Reply with quote

So way back when you guys helped me make the upgrade for my old pioneer 1100 laserdisc remote discussed here...

http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=907&sid=30d0696ddf299d081bf63ffbcd37dad3

The problem is, I tried to add it to my current remote after not using it for many years and it would not work. After pulling out my old 8080 remote that happens to have the LD 0023 (which is mostly the same) in it and test it and it still controlled my laserdisc player. Then I learned the codes on another jp1 remote and it decodes as Akai device 4 instead of 3 like we have listed in all the info on about the 0023 code.

So I changed my upgrade to use the device 4 instead and it works fine again. The problem is anyone trying to load my old upgrade or the 0032 one that Rob put up will not work without changing from 3 to 4.

Is there something that should be fixed on the decoder end or something or should I just upload the new updated upgrade?

The upgrades that are affected that I know about are here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=316
and
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=309

Thanks
Mitch
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mdavej
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Joined: 08 Oct 2003
Posts: 3602

PostPosted: Thu Aug 11, 2016 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you don't get a better answer, I recommend you simply add a comment to the above files' download page about possibly needing to change the device to 4. As-is, they have worked for hundreds of people, apparently without issue, for many years.
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Carwarr



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can sure add that comment to my upgrade but I still think there might be an issue with some jp1 software that is looking at this info. Every program I use to look at these upgrades seems to show device 4 now and all the info we have about LDP/0023 and my previous upgrade states it should be device 3.

Anyway, I put a IR file from my 15-2117 that I learned the codes on in the diag. file area here if anyone wants to look at it and see if I am missing something.

Arrow Click here for my File Rolling Eyes

The 4 learned keys under the TV are learned from the LDP/0023 official protocol stored in my urc-8080 remote and the ones learned under DVD buttons are the actual Pioneer CU-1100 remote.

Thanks
Mitch
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3FG
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Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 3224

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

IR signals are just time sequences of On or Off durations. It is convenient to describe these time sequences with concepts such as device numbers or OBCs, but the assignment of the numbers can be done in multiple ways.

Akai is a very old IR protocol, and the JP1 community classified it before we well understood the ramifications of the assignments. Meanwhile, UEI wrote the PID 000D executor to send the Akai protocol. UEI chose to distribute the 10 bits of information as 2 bits of fixed data and 8 bits of variable data. Effectively this amounts to 2 bits of device number, and a 8 bit OBC. John Fine chose to decode the Akai time sequence as 3 bits of device number and 7 bits of OBC. For upgrades, KM was written to work with the UEI executor, but the definition of zero and one was reversed between the device number and the OBCs. For RM, the protocols.ini entry accepts device and OBCs which correspond to John's decoding and converts these into the form needed by the UEI executor. (This conversion is complicated; I don't understand it well, and the user interface is a little odd, but I assume it works.)

The upshot is that upgrades generated by KM don't work if loaded into RMIR. I think you can add a note to change the device number if using the upgrade with RMIR as mdavej suggested, or, upload a tested RMDU file so that we have both KM and RMDU files for the upgrades.
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The Robman
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Joined: 01 Aug 2003
Posts: 18131
Location: Chicago, IL

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As best as I can tell, we only have 4 updates that use this executor, and 1 of them is already an RM file, so let's just convert the 3 KM files into RM files.
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Rob
www.hifi-remote.com
Please don't PM me with remote questions, post them in the forums so all the experts can help!
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Carwarr



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the excellent explanation of protocols. I love knowing how it works even if about half of it goes over my head!

Anyway, it has been a long time since I made that upgrade and I forgot how I did it. So from what you are saying, I thought that if I took my orig upgrade and load it in KM and then move it to IR.exe and upload it to my remote it should work... But it does not. I still have to change the device code from 3 to 4 and then it works again. This is fine that I could put a note on my upgrade or just outright change it because it seems like if it is done with KM/IR or RM/RMIR it would always have to be device code 4. The problem I see with that is that Rob would have to change his official LD/0023 code to device 4 also and actually any of the other Akai/3 setup codes that we might have posted here would also need to be changed to 4. (Or are all the Akai codes off by 1??? I only see 4 or 5 in devices.exe)

And all references to device 3 in things like Devices.xls should be changed to 4.

See the problem? It just seems like it is something that is better changed at the core somehow, but I am just trying to bring it to someones attention and help as I can. It is way beyond my ability to fix it!

Correct me if I am way off base here.

I have to stick with KM/IR because I only have JP1 remotes and a home built parallel cable and am not running Windows 7 64bit.

Thanks
Mitch
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3FG
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Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 3224

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 7:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, so I tried it using KM 9.21--loaded the upgrades into an Atlas remote and captured the resulting signals with a Widget. The signals decode as device 7 instead of device 4. So I fired up the search function and found a thread announcing KM 8.44, which says the handling of the Akai protocol was changed to match DecodeIR. The upgrades were made in 2004, with KM 8.06. So it looks like KM was changed in 2006, but the upgrades weren't revised to reflect the new way of handling the Akai protocol.

So instead of a note, please just edit the upgrades to device 4.

I realize this leaves Devices.xls and the Lookup Tool still showing the device number as 3, but the value of 3 is obtained from the fixed data. Usually the fixed data and and the device number match, especially for these simple protocols and executors, but not always. And with more complicated protocols, the correspondence can be pretty poor. For example, SharpDVD or Panasonic (both from the Kaseikyo familiy) or Windows MCE from the RC6 family.

BTW, I understand why you need to stick with IR.exe, but you don't need to use KM. RemoteMaster also works to generate the upgrades to paste into IR. The main reason to use RM would be to handle newer IR protocols that weren't around in 2010 when development of KM seems to have stalled.
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Carwarr



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

3FG wrote:
The signals decode as device 7 instead of device 4.

I noticed that 7 when looking at the RM device update editor. Under the setup tab/protocol parameters/device code it was originally 3 (and that is what I changed to 4 to make it work in KM), but under the functions tab, there is a column that says 7 for each line. I didn't know what that that was for and is not there when working with KM so I didn't mess with it. Why is there 2 places for that #?

3FG wrote:
BTW, I understand why you need to stick with IR.exe, but you don't need to use KM. RemoteMaster also works to generate the upgrades to paste into IR. The main reason to use RM would be to handle newer IR protocols that weren't around in 2010 when development of KM seems to have stalled.

Thanks for that info. I will play with RM more now. If I remember correctly, back when I started working with my remotes, RM was new and I just never got into playing with it.
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3FG
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Joined: 19 May 2009
Posts: 3224

PostPosted: Sat Aug 13, 2016 11:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said earlier, the RM user interface for the Akai protocol is a little odd. Still, it works. On the other hand, KM is simpler, but it can't actually handle the IR signals in Video 0061, which in the decoding scheme used in DecodeIR needs both devices numbers 3 and 7. That's the only example I know of that needs both device numbers.

If we were first recognizing and decoding the Akai IR protocol today, we would probably use the same scheme that UEI used: 2 bits of device and 8 bits of OBC, because it would make life a lot simpler. But we didn't, so the most significant of our 3 device bits has to be incorporated into the 8 bits of variable data used by the 000D executor. To do that, RM puts both possible device numbers on the functions tab, and takes the MSB of the selected device number and includes it in the OBC. KM doesn't have a mechanism to accomplish that.
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Carwarr



Joined: 30 Dec 2003
Posts: 55
Location: Las Vegas, NV

PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2016 8:19 pm    Post subject: New upgrade Reply with quote

So I updated my LD-1100 upgrade so it works now with device changed to 4 and it is here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=14179

Someone should delete the old one that will not work here:
http://www.hifi-remote.com/forums/dload.php?action=file&file_id=309

And the LD/0023 that Rob put up should be edited to change the device to 4 and all will work with that one too(which of course is almost the same as my upgrade just labeled a little differently).

Thanks
Mitch
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