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Barf
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Joined: 24 Oct 2008
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Location: Munich, Germany
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 Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 10:58 am Post subject: Table of JP1 relevant programs |
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In the file section there is a large number of programs, and, not only for the rookie, it is often very hard to determine what programs really solves a problem. There are a lot of obsolete programs, and also obsolete versions of non-obsolete programs, even in the "main" section. I just uploaded a table of some of the common "JP1 programs", available here.
Some explanation: I am the author of some of the programs, so a "bias" is to be expected. Let the feedback come, and let me know if some judgment is questionable.
The first sheet in the spread sheet table lists programs, the second libraries, and the third data base files. There is certainly a number of errors and omissions, and things that are unclear, just post. Statements about what is actively maintained or not ("Act. Maint." column) are of course just guesses. I have just listed programs available in the file section here, and not included search programs and such. |
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vickyg2003
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Joined: 20 Mar 2004
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Table of JP1 relevant programs |
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| Barf wrote: | In the file section there is a large number of programs, and, not only for the rookie, it is often very hard to determine what programs really solves a problem. There are a lot of obsolete programs, and also obsolete versions of non-obsolete programs, even in the "main" section. I just uploaded a table of some of the common "JP1 programs", available here.
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Hi Barf.
After looking at this, I'm trying to figure out who your audience is.
It looks much more as if its designed for a developer rather than a "Rookie user".
No matter your audience is, there isn't a column to tell you WHERE the heck is the tool. At a minimum I'd like to know which folder it is in, because I have a heck of a time finding where things are, and I've been here almost 10 years. A link to the actual file would be even better, but I've seen this can be really hard to maintain.
If you are going for the Rookie, I would really change the presentation. As a user I really don't care if it is maintained, what technology whether its Gui or CLI, or if it has a license.
Of course as a user, I want to know if I need runtime libraries, or Excel in order to run it. But I don't want to have it put to me as the "Build Environment". Is it a 16bit app? We still have some of those, sorry to say. Does it run from a DOS prompt. Will it run under Windows 7? Windows 7 64bit? Linux? Mac?
As a user, what I would like is a list of usages, and a checkmark under the products that can do it. Perhaps an editiorial bold check or "star for the program best suited to the purpose.
Convert a UEI learn to Pronto Hex?
Convert Pronto Hex to UEI Learn?
Decode CCF file?
Create Pronto Hex from IRP?
And lastly, for the Rookie user, rather than having another spreadsheet tucked away a section in the wiki might server you better. |
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Barf
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Location: Munich, Germany
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 3:50 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Vicky,
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It looks much more as if its designed for a developer rather than a "Rookie user". |
Bingo!!!  I wrote it, because I wanted that listing myself, and I felt that possibly could be of use to other (developers). I have not tried to make a rookie document, and have not claimed this either. There is an undertone in your posting that this is something evil. Possibly a successor document can be written, aimed at rookies, drawing from the result of the present one? Offering your help?
Having said this, many of your suggestions are not relevant.
| Quote: | No matter your audience is, there isn't a column to tell you WHERE the heck is the tool.
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Absolutely. The reason why I did not do it was it is "just hard work", that can be deferred to the second edition. And if the feedback from the first edition is bad, I save time by not doing it at all. 
| Quote: | Of course as a user, I want to know if I need runtime libraries, or Excel in order to run it. But I don't want to have it put to me as the "Build Environment".
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Got this wrong, Vicky, very wrong. This is for developers. Build Environment is not runtime environment. It says what environment needs to be installed to compile, and in the continuation, to participate in the development of said program. That column says that to develop some programs, you need "nothing", for IrMaster, Netbeans (Open Source freeware, but pretty large) is nice but not absolutely required, others (IR, IRScope) requires the paid version (around $500 if I am not misinformed) of Microsoft Visual Studio. I think this is important information for the aspiring developer (however not the "user"), that is not collected anywhere else. What do you think Vicky?
| Quote: | | Does it run from a DOS prompt |
The CLI + Windows column
| Quote: | | Will it run under Windows 7? Windows 7 64bit? |
This is harder, and not that "binary". For example, RM violently violates the modern Windows' rules where an application program may write and where not. (I did make an serious attempt to clean up this mess, but it was ... not entirely successful  )
take another look But, really, it is again more fine grained, RPM-support?, Gnome/KDE-Support?
| Quote: | | As a user, what I would like is a list of usages, and a checkmark under the products that can do it. Perhaps an editiorial bold check or "star for the program best suited to the purpose. |
Again agreed. I am capable of much, however quantitatively assessing my own programs against others in factors like user friendliness, however not: my self criticism fires an alarm. You?
Regards,
Bengt
EDIT: I have updated the "Long Description" to clarify the target group. Possibly avoiding some misunderstandings... |
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vickyg2003
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| Posted: Mon Jul 30, 2012 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Barf wrote: | ,
| Vicky wrote: |
It looks much more as if its designed for a developer rather than a "Rookie user". |
Bingo!!! I wrote it, because I wanted that listing myself, and I felt that possibly could be of use to other (developers). I have not tried to make a rookie document, and have not claimed this either. There is an undertone in your posting that this is something evil. Possibly a successor document can be written, aimed at rookies, drawing from the result of the present one?
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Not evil, no undertones intended. I got sidetracked by the first sentence of your post.
| Quote: | | "In the file section there is a large number of programs, and, not only for the rookie, it is often very hard to determine what programs really solves a problem." |
This just got me into the rookie mindset, not the developer mindset.
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Having said this, many of your suggestions are not relevant.
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Yep, not relevant.
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Netbeans (Open Source freeware, but pretty large) is nice but not absolutely required, others (IR, IRScope) requires the paid version (around $500 if I am not misinformed) of Microsoft Visual Studio. I think this is important information for the aspiring developer (however not the "user"), that is not collected anywhere else. What do you think Vicky?
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I was under the impression that the development environment on IRScope was one of the freebies. And isn't IR Delphi? I really don't know. I thought you could get into development on these at little to no cost.
I don't aspire to do that kind of work, because its over my head, so I didn't pay too much attention. |
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Barf
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| Posted: Tue Jul 31, 2012 4:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I was under the impression that the development environment on IRScope was one of the freebies. And isn't IR Delphi? I really don't know. I thought you could get into development on these at little to no cost. |
My area of competence does not include the windows development environments (although I have recently done quite some work with Visual Studio 2008 Express Edition C#). If I am wrong, please correct me; that was one of my goals by putting together the information. I think there is definitely a "Delphi" missing somewhere. |
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alanrichey
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:13 am Post subject: |
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| I am using IR and IRScope very regularly and I haven't bought any other development tools. I don't know what the requirements are but they certainly don't cost anything. |
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Barf
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:32 am Post subject: |
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| I think there is a misunderstanding here: certainly you do not need any particular development tools to use said programs, however, to compile (develop) to my knowledge you need Microsoft Visual Studio, paid version (not Express Edition). If I am wrong, and you know a way to compile with free or low-cost tools (trial versions do not count), please let us/me know. |
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alanrichey
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:04 am Post subject: |
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| Sorry, I thought you were talking about using them, not developing them. Ignore previous comment. |
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vickyg2003
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 8:33 am Post subject: |
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Oops, I gave you bum information on that. When I did a search to see if I could find out definately, I see you got an answer straight from mathdon back in 2010. IRScope requires the MFC not available in Visual C++ Express. So we know that IRScope uses the MFC. It was unclemilties ExtInstall that used the Visual Express version.
I can't find any information on the cost or version of the delphi needed for IR. |
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3FG
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 1:17 pm Post subject: |
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Visual Studio Express doesn't include the MFC headers. But it is possible to compile programs such as IRScope using VS Express. http://www.xtremedotnettalk.com/showthread.php?p=473581. I did this in VS Express 2008, using the earlier article in CodeProject. It took me a couple of hours.
Embarcadero used to provide Delphi 7 for free, and I downloaded that. It will compile IR8.03 with only a few minor changes-- the newer versions of Delphi have more colors named, so it was necessary to change a few of the colors. When I was working on the WinUSB drivers for the Delcom interfaces, I used the debugger under Delphi 7 frequently. I see that the version 7 downloads are still floating around on the web, but not from Embarcadero. |
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mathdon
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| Posted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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My development work on IR.exe was done in Turbo Delphi 2006, which required a licence from Embarcadero but the licence was free of charge and valid for 100 years  . On opening it today I get told that I have 34399 days left on the licence, but that should be enough to see me out .
I looked again a couple of years later and could no longer find a free version. If Delphi hadn't been free at the time I got involved with JP1, I would never have got involved in its software development (and so would have a much quieter life ).
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